6 ms·

Without knowing the in's and out's of supply and demand this really raises the question as to why 14,000 sheep needed to be transported. Our reliance on global

Without knowing the in's and out's of supply and demand this really raises the question as to why 14,000 sheep needed to be transported. Our reliance on global markets for our produce is out of hand (probably preaching to the converted here).

kmlx 7y ago
> why 14,000 sheep needed to be transported why not? if i sell my sheep and need to deliver them to the buyer, then i'll need a form of transport.
- netcan 7y ago
  The pertinent question is "why live?" Live transports are (for example) the biggest animal welfare issue for kiwi sheep.
  - Lev1a 7y ago
    Because of religious BS.
    - ruthless_banker 7y ago
      Careful, you are dangerously close to hate speech.
  - zanybear 7y ago
    I'm assuming because of the way an animal is sacrificed in order to be considered "halal". It would require a large slaughterhouse with the proper setup, which in an 98% orthodox country is not a easy arrangement.
    - toomanybeersies 7y ago
      About 25% of red meat exports from New Zealand are halal, and almost every slaughterhouse is capable of halal slaughter. It's actually not particularly difficult to do halal slaughter, the two main requirements are that it is killed with a cut to the throat (common in non-halal slaughter) by a Muslim.
      - netcan 7y ago
        I'm not sure the muslim is a requirement per se, it's just that in practice there's an overseer. Many/most Muslim clerics accept kosher meat as halal, for example, even though the supervision is not necessarily Muslim.
  - aivisol 7y ago
    This might give some clue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah "The slaughter itself must be done by a sane (mentally competent) adult Muslim."
    - netcan 7y ago
      Halal abatoirs are the norm in most Sheep producing parts of Australia/NZ. This is far from unbridgeable. The immediate reason for live exports now is there there's a premium on live sheep, often in the middle east. Anyway, either the exporting or importing country can "ban" live shipping, so if origin and destination countries have different opinions that doesn't mean things can't change. Obviously ban doesn't mean ban, just regulate to the point where transport-to-abatoir doesn't make sense. Obviously breeding stock and such will still travel.
- IceCreamGondola 7y ago
  Nothing wrong with needing to transport but the problem is that globalisation has made it economically more viable to sell globally than locally. Produce should first be sourced locally then globally when they really need it.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    > Produce should first be sourced locally then globally when they really need it. global (aka long-distance) trade started around 3000 BC. it got a boom in 1815 due to mechanisation. if you want to find out more, this is a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade
    - IceCreamGondola 7y ago
      As I've said elsewhere, I have no issue with global trade. What I have an issue with is our over-reliance on global trade.
LoSboccacc 7y ago
right, why don't they flock them on their vast deserts
- Sol- 7y ago
  They could import processed goods or simply go without them.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    how dare them want to eat right?
    - adrianN 7y ago
      What part about importing dead sheep instead of live sheep is the problem?
      - LoSboccacc 7y ago
        ah, the good old "I can't see why they doing it so they must be wrong" line of thinking. dunno, on top of my head: how much does shipping frozen good costs over short-medium distances? how much does slaughtering cost in either countries? how do you track if food was processed according to that market expectancy and codes? why wendy is so big on touting his beef was never frozen? and there's not even a general rule, shipping meat can be cost effective compared to animals depending on country of origin and destination, yet alone distances, i.e. https://library.wur.nl/WebQuery/wurpubs/fulltext/420339 https://library.wur.nl/WebQuery/wurpubs/fulltext/420339 and the result vary according to whether you're optimizing for cost or environment protection (and we know what companies tend to go for, right?)
        adrianN 7y ago
        Maybe we shouldn't optimize just for cost effectiveness if sentient beings are involved?
netcan 7y ago
"Our" reliance, in this case, is Saudi Arabia's. They live in a desert that won't produce enough sheep/meat for their pots. In some senses, this is not new for the region. Meat was produced locally, but rice and wheat have been the main staples for thousands of years. They don't grow in deserts (before irrigation). There are lots of very ancient cities in the deep deserts of the Middle East.. places that don't produce much food. Petra is a striking one. They've been eating store bought, imported food since before europe existed.
- IceCreamGondola 7y ago
  > In the 1970s, increasing incomes in urban areas stimulated the demand for meat and dairy products, but by the early 1980s government programs were only partially successful in increasing domestic production. Bedouin continued to raise a large number of sheep and goats. Payments for increased flocks, however, had not resulted in a proportionate increase of animals for slaughter. Some commercial feedlots for sheep and cattle had been established as well as a few modern ranches, but by the early 1980s, much of the meat consumed was imported. Although the meat supply was still largely imported in the early 1990s, domestic production of meat had grown by 33 percent between 1984 and 1990, from 101,000 tons to 134,000 tons. This increase, however, masked the dominant role of traditional farms in supplying meat. Although new projects accounted for some of the rapid growth during the 1980s, a sharp decline of roughly 74 percent in beef stock production by specialized projects during 1989 resulted in only a 15 percent fall in meat output. This reversal also highlighted the problems in introducing modern commercial livestock-rearing techniques to the Kingdom. [1] Yes they don't have the capability to rear enough livestock so they have to import. Saudi Arabia existed before large scale imports like this, the problem is our (read: economically powerful countries) expectations are that we can get whatever we want whenever we want. When that happens tragedies like this occur. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Saudi_Arabia
7952 7y ago
I think that it may be connected to halal restrictions. The ship was destined for Saudi Arabia, and the sheep would be slaughtered locally.
- IceCreamGondola 7y ago
  That could be a possibility
Ensorceled 7y ago
If not for global markets, my fresh fruit and vegetable selection would be VERY limited. As a kid, I had mostly root vegetables and apples from October until spring.
- k_sze 7y ago
  I have always wondered if we, as a species, are the problem. Maybe we’re really not supposed to spread and colonize every part of Earth. Maybe we’re supposed to stay within much narrower areas where the local produce is good enough. Not sure if I’m making sense.
  - Ensorceled 7y ago
    That's a very religious point of view. We are the problem, but only in that we're THE apex predator and we can't seem to figure out a way to control our worst consumption impulses. One thing that struck me about a childhood visit to "St. Marie amongst the Hurons"[1] was that the Hurons would "use up" a place and simply abandon their longhouses and maize fields and move to a place with better hunting. Sometimes they would return a few years later to that same place after the prey populations had a chance to recover. The echos of this world view is what freaks me out about people like Musk saying we need to get off Earth. [1] http://www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca/sm/en/Home/index.htm http://www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca/sm/en/Home/index....
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

kmlx 7y ago

> why 14,000 sheep needed to be transported why not? if i sell my sheep and need to deliver them to the buyer, then i'll need a form of transport.

netcan 7y ago
The pertinent question is "why live?" Live transports are (for example) the biggest animal welfare issue for kiwi sheep.
- Lev1a 7y ago
  Because of religious BS.
  - ruthless_banker 7y ago
    Careful, you are dangerously close to hate speech.
- zanybear 7y ago
  I'm assuming because of the way an animal is sacrificed in order to be considered "halal". It would require a large slaughterhouse with the proper setup, which in an 98% orthodox country is not a easy arrangement.
  - toomanybeersies 7y ago
    About 25% of red meat exports from New Zealand are halal, and almost every slaughterhouse is capable of halal slaughter. It's actually not particularly difficult to do halal slaughter, the two main requirements are that it is killed with a cut to the throat (common in non-halal slaughter) by a Muslim.
    - netcan 7y ago
      I'm not sure the muslim is a requirement per se, it's just that in practice there's an overseer. Many/most Muslim clerics accept kosher meat as halal, for example, even though the supervision is not necessarily Muslim.
- aivisol 7y ago
  This might give some clue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah "The slaughter itself must be done by a sane (mentally competent) adult Muslim."
  - netcan 7y ago
    Halal abatoirs are the norm in most Sheep producing parts of Australia/NZ. This is far from unbridgeable. The immediate reason for live exports now is there there's a premium on live sheep, often in the middle east. Anyway, either the exporting or importing country can "ban" live shipping, so if origin and destination countries have different opinions that doesn't mean things can't change. Obviously ban doesn't mean ban, just regulate to the point where transport-to-abatoir doesn't make sense. Obviously breeding stock and such will still travel.
IceCreamGondola 7y ago
Nothing wrong with needing to transport but the problem is that globalisation has made it economically more viable to sell globally than locally. Produce should first be sourced locally then globally when they really need it.
- kmlx 7y ago
  > Produce should first be sourced locally then globally when they really need it. global (aka long-distance) trade started around 3000 BC. it got a boom in 1815 due to mechanisation. if you want to find out more, this is a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade
  - IceCreamGondola 7y ago
    As I've said elsewhere, I have no issue with global trade. What I have an issue with is our over-reliance on global trade.

LoSboccacc 7y ago

right, why don't they flock them on their vast deserts

Sol- 7y ago
They could import processed goods or simply go without them.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  how dare them want to eat right?
  - adrianN 7y ago
    What part about importing dead sheep instead of live sheep is the problem?
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      ah, the good old "I can't see why they doing it so they must be wrong" line of thinking. dunno, on top of my head: how much does shipping frozen good costs over short-medium distances? how much does slaughtering cost in either countries? how do you track if food was processed according to that market expectancy and codes? why wendy is so big on touting his beef was never frozen? and there's not even a general rule, shipping meat can be cost effective compared to animals depending on country of origin and destination, yet alone distances, i.e. https://library.wur.nl/WebQuery/wurpubs/fulltext/420339 https://library.wur.nl/WebQuery/wurpubs/fulltext/420339 and the result vary according to whether you're optimizing for cost or environment protection (and we know what companies tend to go for, right?)
      - adrianN 7y ago
        Maybe we shouldn't optimize just for cost effectiveness if sentient beings are involved?

netcan 7y ago

"Our" reliance, in this case, is Saudi Arabia's. They live in a desert that won't produce enough sheep/meat for their pots. In some senses, this is not new for the region. Meat was produced locally, but rice and wheat have been the main staples for thousands of years. They don't grow in deserts (before irrigation). There are lots of very ancient cities in the deep deserts of the Middle East.. places that don't produce much food. Petra is a striking one. They've been eating store bought, imported food since before europe existed.

IceCreamGondola 7y ago
> In the 1970s, increasing incomes in urban areas stimulated the demand for meat and dairy products, but by the early 1980s government programs were only partially successful in increasing domestic production. Bedouin continued to raise a large number of sheep and goats. Payments for increased flocks, however, had not resulted in a proportionate increase of animals for slaughter. Some commercial feedlots for sheep and cattle had been established as well as a few modern ranches, but by the early 1980s, much of the meat consumed was imported. Although the meat supply was still largely imported in the early 1990s, domestic production of meat had grown by 33 percent between 1984 and 1990, from 101,000 tons to 134,000 tons. This increase, however, masked the dominant role of traditional farms in supplying meat. Although new projects accounted for some of the rapid growth during the 1980s, a sharp decline of roughly 74 percent in beef stock production by specialized projects during 1989 resulted in only a 15 percent fall in meat output. This reversal also highlighted the problems in introducing modern commercial livestock-rearing techniques to the Kingdom. [1] Yes they don't have the capability to rear enough livestock so they have to import. Saudi Arabia existed before large scale imports like this, the problem is our (read: economically powerful countries) expectations are that we can get whatever we want whenever we want. When that happens tragedies like this occur. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Saudi_Arabia

7952 7y ago

I think that it may be connected to halal restrictions. The ship was destined for Saudi Arabia, and the sheep would be slaughtered locally.

IceCreamGondola 7y ago
That could be a possibility

Ensorceled 7y ago

If not for global markets, my fresh fruit and vegetable selection would be VERY limited. As a kid, I had mostly root vegetables and apples from October until spring.

k_sze 7y ago
I have always wondered if we, as a species, are the problem. Maybe we’re really not supposed to spread and colonize every part of Earth. Maybe we’re supposed to stay within much narrower areas where the local produce is good enough. Not sure if I’m making sense.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  That's a very religious point of view. We are the problem, but only in that we're THE apex predator and we can't seem to figure out a way to control our worst consumption impulses. One thing that struck me about a childhood visit to "St. Marie amongst the Hurons"[1] was that the Hurons would "use up" a place and simply abandon their longhouses and maize fields and move to a place with better hunting. Sometimes they would return a few years later to that same place after the prey populations had a chance to recover. The echos of this world view is what freaks me out about people like Musk saying we need to get off Earth. [1] http://www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca/sm/en/Home/index.htm http://www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca/sm/en/Home/index....
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]