4 ms·

Well before going full conspiracy, I believe a lot of tech people are anti union themselves compared to some other fields. I'm not one of them but as long as th

Well before going full conspiracy, I believe a lot of tech people are anti union themselves compared to some other fields. I'm not one of them but as long as there is demand like right now for programmers, the conditions and pay is good.

goatinaboat 7y ago
as long as there is demand like right now for programmers, the conditions and pay is good. The time to assert your rights is when you have leverage, if you wait until you need those rights because you have no leverage it’s too late.
- CryptoPunk 7y ago
  Unionization could very plausibly weaken the US tech sector. It's happened before (US Steel, the US passenger rail service, high-volume manufacturing, the Big Three auto makers).
  - iwintermute 7y ago
    Yeah, just remember what those pesky unions did to german automakers
    - CryptoPunk 7y ago
      (copy-pasting) Germany seems to have strong unions and a strong auto industry, but the German economy as a whole has suffered decades of wage stagnation. One outperforming industry alone doesn't negate the broader correlation between restrictive labor laws, and degraded economic performance. Also, Germany has many advantages in manufacturing that are independent of its labor laws, like a strong work ethic and tradition of engineering, good trade schools, etc. So an argument can be made that it has a strong tendency to be a manufacturing power that is capable of counter-acting the harmful effects of bad policies. One possible indication that unionization has had a harmful impact on German economic development is if you look at Germany's past compared to its present you see that it developed more rapidly relative to its contemporaries before embracing the social-democratic/unionized-workforce model.
      - r9gNJup6xExJ7gs 7y ago
        Du bist dumm.
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
        Every country developed more rapidly at some point in time. What's your correlation coefficient? Is the optimal social order defined near ancient Euphrates or in the industrial revolution era UK?
        CryptoPunk 7y ago
        I don't have an answer to that, but economists have largely found the effect of unionization and labor laws on industrial and labor market efficiency to be negative, and that's a predictable finding according the economic theory.
flir 7y ago
> for programmers, the conditions and pay is good. Whatever happened with that anti-poaching agreement the big SV companies had? Because it seems to me the pay and conditions would be a lot better in a truly free market.
- otras 7y ago
  Do you mean the High-Tech Employee Antitrust Litigation? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...
CryptoPunk 7y ago
From what I remember, the percentage of programmers/tech-workers who have libertarian/free-market views is much higher than percentage found in the general population.
- pizzazzaro 7y ago
  Its almost like... Coders live lives of privilege even before they learn to code. Imagine trusting the "Market" to make wise decisions.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    I think this is far more likely because software engineers are drawn to arguments based on first principles over ones based on empiricism. And the majority of libertarians arguments are both based on first principles and appeal to people who like this type of argument.
  - CryptoPunk 7y ago
    >>Imagine trusting the "Market" to make wise decisions. The market just means other people, free to act without compulsion. It works because information is transmitted through local decisions, as the changes local decisions make to supply/demand impact the prices that are communicated to the economy at large. The resulting price system is a result of more economic calculations than any central economic planner could perform, which is why more market-based economies outperform more centrally-planned ones, as the empirical evidence shows. Anyway, libertarians as a group are the most educated: https://www.people-press.org/typology/quiz/?pass&src=typology-report https://www.people-press.org/typology/quiz/?pass&src=typolog... The above shows they do also have the highest incomes, which would support your "they're trying to protect their privilege" theory. And libertarians are the most rational: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0042366 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Libertarian views are more consistent with those of economists: https://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/the_big_four_ec.html https://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/the_big_four_ec.html

goatinaboat 7y ago

as long as there is demand like right now for programmers, the conditions and pay is good. The time to assert your rights is when you have leverage, if you wait until you need those rights because you have no leverage it’s too late.

CryptoPunk 7y ago
Unionization could very plausibly weaken the US tech sector. It's happened before (US Steel, the US passenger rail service, high-volume manufacturing, the Big Three auto makers).
- iwintermute 7y ago
  Yeah, just remember what those pesky unions did to german automakers
  - CryptoPunk 7y ago
    (copy-pasting) Germany seems to have strong unions and a strong auto industry, but the German economy as a whole has suffered decades of wage stagnation. One outperforming industry alone doesn't negate the broader correlation between restrictive labor laws, and degraded economic performance. Also, Germany has many advantages in manufacturing that are independent of its labor laws, like a strong work ethic and tradition of engineering, good trade schools, etc. So an argument can be made that it has a strong tendency to be a manufacturing power that is capable of counter-acting the harmful effects of bad policies. One possible indication that unionization has had a harmful impact on German economic development is if you look at Germany's past compared to its present you see that it developed more rapidly relative to its contemporaries before embracing the social-democratic/unionized-workforce model.
    - r9gNJup6xExJ7gs 7y ago
      Du bist dumm.
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Every country developed more rapidly at some point in time. What's your correlation coefficient? Is the optimal social order defined near ancient Euphrates or in the industrial revolution era UK?
      - CryptoPunk 7y ago
        I don't have an answer to that, but economists have largely found the effect of unionization and labor laws on industrial and labor market efficiency to be negative, and that's a predictable finding according the economic theory.

flir 7y ago

> for programmers, the conditions and pay is good. Whatever happened with that anti-poaching agreement the big SV companies had? Because it seems to me the pay and conditions would be a lot better in a truly free market.

otras 7y ago
Do you mean the High-Tech Employee Antitrust Litigation? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...

CryptoPunk 7y ago

From what I remember, the percentage of programmers/tech-workers who have libertarian/free-market views is much higher than percentage found in the general population.

pizzazzaro 7y ago
Its almost like... Coders live lives of privilege even before they learn to code. Imagine trusting the "Market" to make wise decisions.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  I think this is far more likely because software engineers are drawn to arguments based on first principles over ones based on empiricism. And the majority of libertarians arguments are both based on first principles and appeal to people who like this type of argument.
- CryptoPunk 7y ago
  >>Imagine trusting the "Market" to make wise decisions. The market just means other people, free to act without compulsion. It works because information is transmitted through local decisions, as the changes local decisions make to supply/demand impact the prices that are communicated to the economy at large. The resulting price system is a result of more economic calculations than any central economic planner could perform, which is why more market-based economies outperform more centrally-planned ones, as the empirical evidence shows. Anyway, libertarians as a group are the most educated: https://www.people-press.org/typology/quiz/?pass&src=typology-report https://www.people-press.org/typology/quiz/?pass&src=typolog... The above shows they do also have the highest incomes, which would support your "they're trying to protect their privilege" theory. And libertarians are the most rational: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0042366 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Libertarian views are more consistent with those of economists: https://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/the_big_four_ec.html https://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/11/the_big_four_ec.html