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I appreciate and welcome this move by RISC-V foundation. With semiconductor industry being used as a major soft power, countries which don't have such power bet

I appreciate and welcome this move by RISC-V foundation. With semiconductor industry being used as a major soft power, countries which don't have such power betting on RISC-V[1], it's wise to move to a neutral country. My only gripe being, there aren't many neutral countries which can stand up to powerful militarized nations. Edit: The reason, I mentioned lack of military power of neutral countries is because of the existence of law such as 'Hague Invasion Act'[2] which allows U.S. to invade Hague to liberate its personnel tried at International Criminal Court for war crimes. Neutral countries need military power to protect its Neutrality! [1]https://shakti.org.in https://shakti.org.in [2]https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-be...

pgeorgi 7y ago
In this case Switzerland seems to be a pretty good choice: compulsory military service, difficult terrain, nuclear power plants (and with them the infrastructure to build the bomb)
- Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
  Conscription is not as effective as a regular volunteer force. Atomic weapons or other WMD goes against the ethos of neutral countries which traditionally are pro-Human Rights. But I understand where you are coming at, perhaps it is because major military nations poses A-Bombs. I guess, if they are democratic countries we have no choice but to hope that their citizens can prevent it from getting used; My real worry is the non-democratic/pseudo democratic countries with A-Bombs. Edit : N-Bomb->A-Bomb.
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    > Conscription is not as effective as a regular volunteer force. Switzerland's terrain wouldn't see regular war but guerilla warfare (including mined bridges and everything). Having trained marksmen in almost every household helps a lot in such a situation. > Atomic weapons or other WMD goes against the ethos of neutral countries which traditionally are pro-Human Rights. I think Switzerland would adopt a "whatever it takes" approach when attacked. At least that's what they credibly project, and so it's unlikely that they'll end up having to play it out.
  - leppr 7y ago
    > I guess, if they are democratic countries we have no choice but to hope that their citizens can prevent it from getting used; There exist no country in the world where citizens have any say on nuclear weapon use. "Pseudo democracy" is the norm.
    - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
      I didn't mean, they have a say in pushing the button. But, they have a say in electing someone who maintains restraint and not a warmonger.
  - SiempreViernes 7y ago
    The the short form of nuclear weapons is conventionally a-bomb. A n-bomb is more likely to refer to use of a slavery related term, and is very frequently used in some circles which include the current US president. So demonstrably democracy does not prevent the use of n-bombs, which happens to be true historically for a-bombs as well (which were used by a democracy essentially because the war wasn't over by the time they've built the thing).
    - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
      Thanks edited. >which were used by a democracy essentially because the war wasn't over by the time they've built the thing). But the same U.S. President Harry S. Truman relieved General of the Army Douglas MacArthur when he wanted to drop A-Bomb on China during the Korean War.
      - SiempreViernes 7y ago
        True, he did learn from that mistake, though it is still fair to criticise him for committing it in the first place and to point out that the democratic principles the USA espoused at the time did not save Nagasaki.
- microtherion 7y ago
  Yeah, that's what we LIKE the others to think. Realistically, our armed forces are at a strength of about 140K soldiers right now (pretty sure that's not a state secret). The parts of the terrain that are actually inhabited are not particularly forbidding (let them build their RISC processors in a hut nestled beside an 8500ft mountain pass. Don't forget to bring popcorn as you watch them). And nuclear power plants make a big fat bombing target for opponents too lazy to make their own dirty bombs. Conveniently placed smack in the middle of the inhabitable part of Switzerland, too.
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    According to Wikipedia [1], you have ~160k active military with ~1.5M that could be conscripted. That's not huge, but it's enough to give an enemy a bad time, especially with the Swiss terrain and strategic defenses. And I'm sure they'd have a bunch of other countries willing to back them up, depending on the belligerent. I highly doubt it'll come to that. It would be much easier to just infiltrate the fab and replace stock going to an important destination. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Armed_Forces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Armed_Forces
    - microtherion 7y ago
      160k may have been accurate 2 years ago, but the number is shrinking continuously: https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/militaer/bestand.svg https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/militaer/bestand.sv... > it's enough to give an enemy a bad time That depends a lot on the objective, I think. The defenses against an enemy controlling the transalpine transportation axes are fairly strong. But I think this scenario gets talked up a lot for exactly that reason. The defenses against an enemy controlling 80% of the population and 90% of the economy are much weaker. Then again, it might only take a few sysadmins armed with SQL queries to deal significant economic damage against any attacker. > It would be much easier to just infiltrate the fab and replace stock going to an important destination. True. And if I've understood the article correctly, no fabs would be changing location. RISC-V is an open source design, so the fabs in question would probably be located in the "enemy" countries anyway.
    - 7y ago
mytailorisrich 7y ago
No-one is going to invade Switzerland. A country like the US can invade any country they want. International law is irrelevant. But they can pressure a country like Switzerland without needing to resort to military action, which would be crazy anyway in the case of Switzerland.
- Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
  True, especially if U.S. has 'Hague Invasion Act' against a NATO member!
- antipropaganda 7y ago
  US can't just invade any country. US would find it very difficult to invade a country with second strike nuclear capability. Even if nuclear war is out of the question, US would find it very difficult to invade, say China: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/china-us-war/594793/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/china-u...
  - linuxftw 7y ago
    The US doesn't normally invade. It's far more efficient to destabilize and prop up the preferred military junta.
    - jacobush 7y ago
      Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.
      - linuxftw 7y ago
        But is that the norm? Cuba, Panama, Syria, Egypt, Iraq v Iran, Ukraine, Libya, Yemen, Somalia. The US takes sides all over the planet; Sometimes the US backs a 'state' and sometimes the US backs 'rebels.'
        jacobush 7y ago
Tepix 7y ago
"Hague invasion act" =:-O The US truly are the bully in the room.
- Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
  Just to clarify, it is officially called 'American Service-Members' Protection Act' which was supposedly passed as there was a chance George W. Bush could be arrested & tried at ICC for war crimes; media & human rights organizations call it 'Hague invasion act' for what it is.
  - 6510 7y ago
    he was already tried in absentia. It was easy, there are many TV interviews where W does a full confession by saying torture produces good information.
    - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
      >he was already tried in absentia I think that was in 'Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission', it's not a U.N. recognised body.
  - shifto 7y ago
    Imagine the US invading The Hague to rescue Bush Jr. How would this even go? Will this be a D-day like landing on Dutch beaches? Probably some boring demands and Netherlands will comply because big bad USA and such.
- pjc50 7y ago
  The US has a strong commitment to pardoning its war criminals and human rights violators. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-warcrimes-pardon/trump-pardons-army-officers-restores-navy-seals-rank-in-war-crimes-cases-idUKKBN1XQ03G https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-warcrimes-pardon... This, incidentally, is why it's hard to take seriously the idea that US positioning against China is aimed at genuinely improving human rights and not just using them as rhetorical cover.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
I don't think anyone is going to invade Switzerland for a RISC cpu design
- Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
  None needs to, it's opensource. They're moving to protect its freedom.
  - wang_li 7y ago
    Since it’s open source they don’t need to move the foundation to protect the design. They’re moving to protect their ability to collect dues from companies tightly controlled by governments that commit human rights abuses on a massive scale.
  - krowfromthewall 7y ago
    I think the term used for Hardware is Open Access, not Open Source
    - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
      Not necessarily. RISC-V Foundation just calls it 'open ISA' and Wikipedia states as 'RISC-V is an open-source hardware instruction set architecture'.
kens 7y ago
Has anyone else noticed HN comment threads becoming more, uh, unfocused lately? Here, an article on technology standards and avoiding trade restrictions on RISC-V has led to pages of comments on nuclear war with Switzerland.
- punnerud 7y ago
  I feel that is the case every November, December before Christmas and June. Times where a lot of bigger (work) projects are due and people are tired.

pgeorgi 7y ago

In this case Switzerland seems to be a pretty good choice: compulsory military service, difficult terrain, nuclear power plants (and with them the infrastructure to build the bomb)

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
Conscription is not as effective as a regular volunteer force. Atomic weapons or other WMD goes against the ethos of neutral countries which traditionally are pro-Human Rights. But I understand where you are coming at, perhaps it is because major military nations poses A-Bombs. I guess, if they are democratic countries we have no choice but to hope that their citizens can prevent it from getting used; My real worry is the non-democratic/pseudo democratic countries with A-Bombs. Edit : N-Bomb->A-Bomb.
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  > Conscription is not as effective as a regular volunteer force. Switzerland's terrain wouldn't see regular war but guerilla warfare (including mined bridges and everything). Having trained marksmen in almost every household helps a lot in such a situation. > Atomic weapons or other WMD goes against the ethos of neutral countries which traditionally are pro-Human Rights. I think Switzerland would adopt a "whatever it takes" approach when attacked. At least that's what they credibly project, and so it's unlikely that they'll end up having to play it out.
- leppr 7y ago
  > I guess, if they are democratic countries we have no choice but to hope that their citizens can prevent it from getting used; There exist no country in the world where citizens have any say on nuclear weapon use. "Pseudo democracy" is the norm.
  - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
    I didn't mean, they have a say in pushing the button. But, they have a say in electing someone who maintains restraint and not a warmonger.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  The the short form of nuclear weapons is conventionally a-bomb. A n-bomb is more likely to refer to use of a slavery related term, and is very frequently used in some circles which include the current US president. So demonstrably democracy does not prevent the use of n-bombs, which happens to be true historically for a-bombs as well (which were used by a democracy essentially because the war wasn't over by the time they've built the thing).
  - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
    Thanks edited. >which were used by a democracy essentially because the war wasn't over by the time they've built the thing). But the same U.S. President Harry S. Truman relieved General of the Army Douglas MacArthur when he wanted to drop A-Bomb on China during the Korean War.
    - SiempreViernes 7y ago
      True, he did learn from that mistake, though it is still fair to criticise him for committing it in the first place and to point out that the democratic principles the USA espoused at the time did not save Nagasaki.
microtherion 7y ago
Yeah, that's what we LIKE the others to think. Realistically, our armed forces are at a strength of about 140K soldiers right now (pretty sure that's not a state secret). The parts of the terrain that are actually inhabited are not particularly forbidding (let them build their RISC processors in a hut nestled beside an 8500ft mountain pass. Don't forget to bring popcorn as you watch them). And nuclear power plants make a big fat bombing target for opponents too lazy to make their own dirty bombs. Conveniently placed smack in the middle of the inhabitable part of Switzerland, too.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  According to Wikipedia [1], you have ~160k active military with ~1.5M that could be conscripted. That's not huge, but it's enough to give an enemy a bad time, especially with the Swiss terrain and strategic defenses. And I'm sure they'd have a bunch of other countries willing to back them up, depending on the belligerent. I highly doubt it'll come to that. It would be much easier to just infiltrate the fab and replace stock going to an important destination. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Armed_Forces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Armed_Forces
  - microtherion 7y ago
    160k may have been accurate 2 years ago, but the number is shrinking continuously: https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/militaer/bestand.svg https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/militaer/bestand.sv... > it's enough to give an enemy a bad time That depends a lot on the objective, I think. The defenses against an enemy controlling the transalpine transportation axes are fairly strong. But I think this scenario gets talked up a lot for exactly that reason. The defenses against an enemy controlling 80% of the population and 90% of the economy are much weaker. Then again, it might only take a few sysadmins armed with SQL queries to deal significant economic damage against any attacker. > It would be much easier to just infiltrate the fab and replace stock going to an important destination. True. And if I've understood the article correctly, no fabs would be changing location. RISC-V is an open source design, so the fabs in question would probably be located in the "enemy" countries anyway.
  - 7y ago

mytailorisrich 7y ago

No-one is going to invade Switzerland. A country like the US can invade any country they want. International law is irrelevant. But they can pressure a country like Switzerland without needing to resort to military action, which would be crazy anyway in the case of Switzerland.

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
True, especially if U.S. has 'Hague Invasion Act' against a NATO member!
antipropaganda 7y ago
US can't just invade any country. US would find it very difficult to invade a country with second strike nuclear capability. Even if nuclear war is out of the question, US would find it very difficult to invade, say China: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/china-us-war/594793/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/china-u...
- linuxftw 7y ago
  The US doesn't normally invade. It's far more efficient to destabilize and prop up the preferred military junta.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.
    - linuxftw 7y ago
      But is that the norm? Cuba, Panama, Syria, Egypt, Iraq v Iran, Ukraine, Libya, Yemen, Somalia. The US takes sides all over the planet; Sometimes the US backs a 'state' and sometimes the US backs 'rebels.'
      - jacobush 7y ago

Tepix 7y ago

"Hague invasion act" =:-O The US truly are the bully in the room.

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
Just to clarify, it is officially called 'American Service-Members' Protection Act' which was supposedly passed as there was a chance George W. Bush could be arrested & tried at ICC for war crimes; media & human rights organizations call it 'Hague invasion act' for what it is.
- 6510 7y ago
  he was already tried in absentia. It was easy, there are many TV interviews where W does a full confession by saying torture produces good information.
  - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
    >he was already tried in absentia I think that was in 'Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission', it's not a U.N. recognised body.
- shifto 7y ago
  Imagine the US invading The Hague to rescue Bush Jr. How would this even go? Will this be a D-day like landing on Dutch beaches? Probably some boring demands and Netherlands will comply because big bad USA and such.
pjc50 7y ago
The US has a strong commitment to pardoning its war criminals and human rights violators. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-warcrimes-pardon/trump-pardons-army-officers-restores-navy-seals-rank-in-war-crimes-cases-idUKKBN1XQ03G https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-warcrimes-pardon... This, incidentally, is why it's hard to take seriously the idea that US positioning against China is aimed at genuinely improving human rights and not just using them as rhetorical cover.

stjohnswarts 7y ago

I don't think anyone is going to invade Switzerland for a RISC cpu design

Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
None needs to, it's opensource. They're moving to protect its freedom.
- wang_li 7y ago
  Since it’s open source they don’t need to move the foundation to protect the design. They’re moving to protect their ability to collect dues from companies tightly controlled by governments that commit human rights abuses on a massive scale.
- krowfromthewall 7y ago
  I think the term used for Hardware is Open Access, not Open Source
  - Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
    Not necessarily. RISC-V Foundation just calls it 'open ISA' and Wikipedia states as 'RISC-V is an open-source hardware instruction set architecture'.

kens 7y ago

Has anyone else noticed HN comment threads becoming more, uh, unfocused lately? Here, an article on technology standards and avoiding trade restrictions on RISC-V has led to pages of comments on nuclear war with Switzerland.

punnerud 7y ago
I feel that is the case every November, December before Christmas and June. Times where a lot of bigger (work) projects are due and people are tired.