3 ms·

Yeah ok. Write down your rules, maybe make a computer simulation or something. Then see if you can get anyone on board your plan. I'd think a good starting p

Yeah ok. Write down your rules, maybe make a computer simulation or something. Then see if you can get anyone on board your plan. I'd think a good starting point would be a local club or something. Don't elect officers, just vote on every issue. If you're lucky, you'll find that every issue you'd want to vote on easily distills down to a binary choice, and it will be obvious what the two choices will be, and what issues there will be to vote on. If not, maybe you can come up with some way to vote on what will be on the ballot. Maybe you'll find yourself rapidly descending down a rabbit hole, or maybe it will work out swimmingly. I'm sure we'd like to see. Good luck!

coldtea 7y ago
>Yeah ok. Write down your rules, maybe make a computer simulation or something. Then see if you can get anyone on board your plan. As if the current plan asked people to get "on board"? You just go with the system that was there when you were born and what you were told to accept, and even learned to justify it as if God given.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  "As if the current plan asked people to get "on board"?" Well, the US system didn't happen without some degree of public support, but that's neither here nor there. A significant number of people had to be convinced that it was a good idea (i.e. better than what had existed before), and they were willing to hash through the details. Generally if the end result is to be a radical change in government, a whole lot of people are going to have to die. Historically, anyway. "You just go with the system that was there when you were born and what you were told to accept," Well I've got a public history that goes back nearly 20 years that says otherwise. (see a few samples below). I am happy to say our current system is very broken. But any system I propose, I go to effort to show it is fairly well thought through. Notably, my proposals don't try to redo everything, but concentrate on something that actually could be changed realistically. Without a war, would be my preference. (and even if you are the type who says "I'm ok with war", well, you still kinda have to convince more than a few people to join your side) So...I am very curious how you address some of the questions about how democracy (or, what I would call "direct democracy" as opposed to "representative democracy") would actually work. How do you decide what is on the ballot? (do you vote on that too? How?) Do you turn everything into a binary choice, and use a simple majority vote? Do you have more than two choices, and just pick the one with the most votes, plurality style? Or, better yet, rank them or do Approval voting? And possibly most importantly, to what granularity are you going to go? When a decision is needed, such as whether to put up a traffic light (or just stick with stop signs) at a particular intersection, does everyone need to vote on it? How about a sick tree on the sidewalk, that needs to be removed or treated? Do you hire employees (i.e. representatives) to make decisions? Or does everybody need to vote on it? And again, what if there are more than two options? My view is that all proposals for direct democracy I have seen are poorly thought through. (and tend to be proposed by dichotomous thinkers) I challenge you to write a detailed proposal up and defend it. (if you prefer, base it on a "starting from scratch" premise, here's one you can use: http://www.karmatics.com/petridish/ http://www.karmatics.com/petridish/ ) I suspect there is a reason it's never been tried at scale, because anyone who suggests it tends to run for cover when they are asked "what exactly do you want us to try?" -- https://www.quora.com/Whats-so-bad-about-plurality-voting/answer/Rob-Brown-13 https://www.quora.com/Whats-so-bad-about-plurality-voting/an... https://www.quora.com/Centrism-3rd-Party-Prospects-in-U-S-Politics-Is-there-a-rational-middle-ground-between-Democratic-and-Republican-views-of-government/answer/Rob-Brown-13 https://www.quora.com/Centrism-3rd-Party-Prospects-in-U-S-Po... http://www.karmatics.com/voting/why-we-have-parties.html http://www.karmatics.com/voting/why-we-have-parties.html http://www.karmatics.com/voting/voting-for-a-number.html http://www.karmatics.com/voting/voting-for-a-number.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiS2A0QLeJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiS2A0QLeJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFbuBMdFSnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFbuBMdFSnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbGwR8fbVYM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbGwR8fbVYM https://pianop.ly/voting/?poll=restaurants&user=dave https://pianop.ly/voting/?poll=restaurants&user=dave

coldtea 7y ago

>Yeah ok. Write down your rules, maybe make a computer simulation or something. Then see if you can get anyone on board your plan. As if the current plan asked people to get "on board"? You just go with the system that was there when you were born and what you were told to accept, and even learned to justify it as if God given.

robbrown451 7y ago
"As if the current plan asked people to get "on board"?" Well, the US system didn't happen without some degree of public support, but that's neither here nor there. A significant number of people had to be convinced that it was a good idea (i.e. better than what had existed before), and they were willing to hash through the details. Generally if the end result is to be a radical change in government, a whole lot of people are going to have to die. Historically, anyway. "You just go with the system that was there when you were born and what you were told to accept," Well I've got a public history that goes back nearly 20 years that says otherwise. (see a few samples below). I am happy to say our current system is very broken. But any system I propose, I go to effort to show it is fairly well thought through. Notably, my proposals don't try to redo everything, but concentrate on something that actually could be changed realistically. Without a war, would be my preference. (and even if you are the type who says "I'm ok with war", well, you still kinda have to convince more than a few people to join your side) So...I am very curious how you address some of the questions about how democracy (or, what I would call "direct democracy" as opposed to "representative democracy") would actually work. How do you decide what is on the ballot? (do you vote on that too? How?) Do you turn everything into a binary choice, and use a simple majority vote? Do you have more than two choices, and just pick the one with the most votes, plurality style? Or, better yet, rank them or do Approval voting? And possibly most importantly, to what granularity are you going to go? When a decision is needed, such as whether to put up a traffic light (or just stick with stop signs) at a particular intersection, does everyone need to vote on it? How about a sick tree on the sidewalk, that needs to be removed or treated? Do you hire employees (i.e. representatives) to make decisions? Or does everybody need to vote on it? And again, what if there are more than two options? My view is that all proposals for direct democracy I have seen are poorly thought through. (and tend to be proposed by dichotomous thinkers) I challenge you to write a detailed proposal up and defend it. (if you prefer, base it on a "starting from scratch" premise, here's one you can use: http://www.karmatics.com/petridish/ http://www.karmatics.com/petridish/ ) I suspect there is a reason it's never been tried at scale, because anyone who suggests it tends to run for cover when they are asked "what exactly do you want us to try?" -- https://www.quora.com/Whats-so-bad-about-plurality-voting/answer/Rob-Brown-13 https://www.quora.com/Whats-so-bad-about-plurality-voting/an... https://www.quora.com/Centrism-3rd-Party-Prospects-in-U-S-Politics-Is-there-a-rational-middle-ground-between-Democratic-and-Republican-views-of-government/answer/Rob-Brown-13 https://www.quora.com/Centrism-3rd-Party-Prospects-in-U-S-Po... http://www.karmatics.com/voting/why-we-have-parties.html http://www.karmatics.com/voting/why-we-have-parties.html http://www.karmatics.com/voting/voting-for-a-number.html http://www.karmatics.com/voting/voting-for-a-number.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiS2A0QLeJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiS2A0QLeJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFbuBMdFSnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFbuBMdFSnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbGwR8fbVYM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbGwR8fbVYM https://pianop.ly/voting/?poll=restaurants&user=dave https://pianop.ly/voting/?poll=restaurants&user=dave