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In the US, for instance, you have a massive (and very deliberately created) population of illegal aliens who can’t legally work anyway, so are unaffected by min

In the US, for instance, you have a massive (and very deliberately created) population of illegal aliens who can’t legally work anyway, so are unaffected by minimum wage laws. Raising minimum wage has the effect of making legal employees even less competitive with illegal ones, and since the authorities have no interest in enforcing their own laws, legal employment at the unskilled end is a sucker’s game. This, I suspect, accounts for much of the backsliding in the last few decades among black and poor white populations in the US.

ajross 7y ago
Right, but what's the evidence for that? I get the argument you're making (and the nativist agenda behind it), but... it's literally disputed by the linked article. I mean, at some point one has to give up and just admit that maybe the analysis was wrong, right? Political facts still have to be facts in the real world, eventually, and thus subject to reason, right?
- sjg007 7y ago
  A lot of farm labor (aka fruit pickers) and food processors.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 7y ago
I think you'll find those who support minimum wage laws also support the enforcement of those laws. I'm not sure if you're advocating for deportation, restrictions on immigrant labor, or something else entirely, but given that you're using terms like "illegal aliens," I'm going to assume you're not a fan. We've already got mechanisms to crack down on black-market labor. Tax-dodging, not paying workers minimum wage, and subjecting employees to unsafe work conditions should be punished as such. In addition to punishing employers who exploit immigrant workers by paying them illegal wages, we should have much larger programs to allow unskilled undocumented immigrants to legally participate in the above-ground economy so the legal citizens aren't undercut. It's the same reason why we don't allow employers to pay teenagers below-minimum wage. Sure, teenagers don't have to support themselves (let alone a family) and might be happy to work for less, but if employers are allowed to pay kids five bucks an hour, they'd only hire kids and the minimum wage would completely fail. In short - the only way to reduce black and gray markets is to punish the exploiters and decriminalize the exploited. Punish the pimps instead of the prostitutes, the drug-lords instead of the addicts, and the business-owners who skirt sensible labor regulations instead of the immigrant workers.
- downerending 7y ago
  I'm not the parent, but as a second-generation immigrant, I broadly agree with all of this. I'm fine with whatever laws we all decide, and I think they should then be vigorously enforced. Our current wink-wink scheme, supported by both major parties, is bad for a lot of people, and in many way most harmful to illegal aliens (who are abused and/or are virtually enslaved).
  - ajross 7y ago
    You think literally millions of people are sneaking across the southwest desert and risking having their children seized and put in cages[1] to be "abused and/or virtually enslaved"?. No, that's not how it works. Immigrant jobs tend to be poorly regulated (no taxes witheld, benefits delivered nor social services funded, etc...). But they're jobs and they pay what jobs pay, generally around minimum wage, because that's where the market chases. I'll leave the both-sides-do-it argument. It's wrong, but there's no way to argue that on this site without getting myself banned. [1] A policy very much not "supported by both major parties"...
    - downerending 7y ago
      I think that most illegal immigrants don't fully understand the downsides, yes. But whether or not that's true, I think it's unethical for us to tacitly encourage them to put themselves and their children in a position where they can be practically enslaved, or even raped or murdered, with little recourse to law.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > You think literally millions of people are sneaking across the southwest desert No, even without the later qualifications; unique illegal border crossers aren't that high, and aren't all “sneaking across the southern desert”. It's not 2000 anymore.

ajross 7y ago

Right, but what's the evidence for that? I get the argument you're making (and the nativist agenda behind it), but... it's literally disputed by the linked article. I mean, at some point one has to give up and just admit that maybe the analysis was wrong, right? Political facts still have to be facts in the real world, eventually, and thus subject to reason, right?

sjg007 7y ago
A lot of farm labor (aka fruit pickers) and food processors.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 7y ago

I think you'll find those who support minimum wage laws also support the enforcement of those laws. I'm not sure if you're advocating for deportation, restrictions on immigrant labor, or something else entirely, but given that you're using terms like "illegal aliens," I'm going to assume you're not a fan. We've already got mechanisms to crack down on black-market labor. Tax-dodging, not paying workers minimum wage, and subjecting employees to unsafe work conditions should be punished as such. In addition to punishing employers who exploit immigrant workers by paying them illegal wages, we should have much larger programs to allow unskilled undocumented immigrants to legally participate in the above-ground economy so the legal citizens aren't undercut. It's the same reason why we don't allow employers to pay teenagers below-minimum wage. Sure, teenagers don't have to support themselves (let alone a family) and might be happy to work for less, but if employers are allowed to pay kids five bucks an hour, they'd only hire kids and the minimum wage would completely fail. In short - the only way to reduce black and gray markets is to punish the exploiters and decriminalize the exploited. Punish the pimps instead of the prostitutes, the drug-lords instead of the addicts, and the business-owners who skirt sensible labor regulations instead of the immigrant workers.

downerending 7y ago
I'm not the parent, but as a second-generation immigrant, I broadly agree with all of this. I'm fine with whatever laws we all decide, and I think they should then be vigorously enforced. Our current wink-wink scheme, supported by both major parties, is bad for a lot of people, and in many way most harmful to illegal aliens (who are abused and/or are virtually enslaved).
- ajross 7y ago
  You think literally millions of people are sneaking across the southwest desert and risking having their children seized and put in cages[1] to be "abused and/or virtually enslaved"?. No, that's not how it works. Immigrant jobs tend to be poorly regulated (no taxes witheld, benefits delivered nor social services funded, etc...). But they're jobs and they pay what jobs pay, generally around minimum wage, because that's where the market chases. I'll leave the both-sides-do-it argument. It's wrong, but there's no way to argue that on this site without getting myself banned. [1] A policy very much not "supported by both major parties"...
  - downerending 7y ago
    I think that most illegal immigrants don't fully understand the downsides, yes. But whether or not that's true, I think it's unethical for us to tacitly encourage them to put themselves and their children in a position where they can be practically enslaved, or even raped or murdered, with little recourse to law.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > You think literally millions of people are sneaking across the southwest desert No, even without the later qualifications; unique illegal border crossers aren't that high, and aren't all “sneaking across the southern desert”. It's not 2000 anymore.