3 ms·

The first part seems circular to me: you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Well, sure. Bu

The first part seems circular to me: you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Well, sure. But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? And the second part feels is framed as disagreeing with my point, but actually seems to support it: we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Shouldn't that mean we should dial down the fear this time around?

magduf 7y ago
>you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Who's "we", and where did I say "we" should fear this? I just pointed out the people of Portugal might not like this, nor might people in other places that might be having similar issues. If you're talking about the US, then no, that's not a well-founded fear at all. >But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Does that matter to the Portuguese? This idea that economic well-being (which frequently doesn't "trickle down" that much) trumps everything is exactly how we got Brexit and Trump. >Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? Well, I'd say electing people like Trump is demonstrably bad, and this is what happens when you simply ignore cultural changes. You end up with people voting for right-wing politicians, so we're seeing this in the US, the UK, and many other European nations. >we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Again, who's "we"? The US is not the world, and other countries are not like the US. You can't apply the US's experience with immigration to countries like Portugal; they have extremely different cultures and histories. Try going to Portugal and telling everyone there "you need to accept mass immigration and you all need to stop speaking Portuguese and switch to English", and see how friendly people are to you.
- debatem1 7y ago
  I think you're inferring a lot of things I didn't say (and an unhealthy number I don't agree with). "We" in this case is shorthand for you and I. It seems you resent that association, so I apologize for extending it. Regarding economics, I didn't say economic harm. I was simply asking what the actual harm is. Setting aside the question of whether something that can't be measured exists, let's try for an easier bar: can a harm that can't even be articulated exist? Regarding Trump and Brexit, my views there are not germane to this conversation-- but since you asked and will undoubtedly try to force the issue, I'll state that I oppose both. On the topic of telling the Portuguese to start speaking English-- if you think that was where I was heading here you're way off the mark and I don't think that's my fault.
  - magduf 7y ago
    >I was simply asking what the actual harm is. Setting aside the question of whether something that can't be measured exists, let's try for an easier bar: can a harm that can't even be articulated exist? It seems that for many people, loss of local culture and language is something they perceive as "harm", and they're resisting it. You can't objectively say whether this is harm or not, because most cultural things are purely subjective, so it's all a matter of perspective. So if people in Portugal are worried their local culture and language are going to be bulldozed by outsiders, when a bunch of non-Portuguese speakers are moving in and restaurants are only operating in English as a result, I can't say they're wrong to feel that way. Personally, I think it's better to have more cosmopolitanism, but then again as an American I do know what it's like to live on a continent where there's a single dominant language and a huge amount of uniformity to everything, and it's really not that great. You can wander around in Florida, Maine, and Arizona, and everyone still speaks the same language, has basically the same culture, and all the stores and restaurants are mostly the same too, even owned by the same companies. Walmart isn't different between Oregon and Tennessee; it's pretty horrible in any state. The same fast-food chains serve the same garbage food wherever you go. >On the topic of telling the Portuguese to start speaking English-- if you think that was where I was heading here you're way off the mark and I don't think that's my fault. It's the natural end-state of the trend that you're asking about the harm of. If tons of English speakers move to Portugal, and all the service businesses eventually switch over to using English and not Portuguese, then it's exactly like I said: you're effectively telling the Portuguese to start speaking English, because they're not going to be able to survive in their own country any more if they don't, if things were to go that way.

magduf 7y ago

>you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Who's "we", and where did I say "we" should fear this? I just pointed out the people of Portugal might not like this, nor might people in other places that might be having similar issues. If you're talking about the US, then no, that's not a well-founded fear at all. >But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Does that matter to the Portuguese? This idea that economic well-being (which frequently doesn't "trickle down" that much) trumps everything is exactly how we got Brexit and Trump. >Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? Well, I'd say electing people like Trump is demonstrably bad, and this is what happens when you simply ignore cultural changes. You end up with people voting for right-wing politicians, so we're seeing this in the US, the UK, and many other European nations. >we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Again, who's "we"? The US is not the world, and other countries are not like the US. You can't apply the US's experience with immigration to countries like Portugal; they have extremely different cultures and histories. Try going to Portugal and telling everyone there "you need to accept mass immigration and you all need to stop speaking Portuguese and switch to English", and see how friendly people are to you.

debatem1 7y ago
I think you're inferring a lot of things I didn't say (and an unhealthy number I don't agree with). "We" in this case is shorthand for you and I. It seems you resent that association, so I apologize for extending it. Regarding economics, I didn't say economic harm. I was simply asking what the actual harm is. Setting aside the question of whether something that can't be measured exists, let's try for an easier bar: can a harm that can't even be articulated exist? Regarding Trump and Brexit, my views there are not germane to this conversation-- but since you asked and will undoubtedly try to force the issue, I'll state that I oppose both. On the topic of telling the Portuguese to start speaking English-- if you think that was where I was heading here you're way off the mark and I don't think that's my fault.
- magduf 7y ago
  >I was simply asking what the actual harm is. Setting aside the question of whether something that can't be measured exists, let's try for an easier bar: can a harm that can't even be articulated exist? It seems that for many people, loss of local culture and language is something they perceive as "harm", and they're resisting it. You can't objectively say whether this is harm or not, because most cultural things are purely subjective, so it's all a matter of perspective. So if people in Portugal are worried their local culture and language are going to be bulldozed by outsiders, when a bunch of non-Portuguese speakers are moving in and restaurants are only operating in English as a result, I can't say they're wrong to feel that way. Personally, I think it's better to have more cosmopolitanism, but then again as an American I do know what it's like to live on a continent where there's a single dominant language and a huge amount of uniformity to everything, and it's really not that great. You can wander around in Florida, Maine, and Arizona, and everyone still speaks the same language, has basically the same culture, and all the stores and restaurants are mostly the same too, even owned by the same companies. Walmart isn't different between Oregon and Tennessee; it's pretty horrible in any state. The same fast-food chains serve the same garbage food wherever you go. >On the topic of telling the Portuguese to start speaking English-- if you think that was where I was heading here you're way off the mark and I don't think that's my fault. It's the natural end-state of the trend that you're asking about the harm of. If tons of English speakers move to Portugal, and all the service businesses eventually switch over to using English and not Portuguese, then it's exactly like I said: you're effectively telling the Portuguese to start speaking English, because they're not going to be able to survive in their own country any more if they don't, if things were to go that way.