6 ms·

I mean, let's imagine for a moment that it's reasonable to treat everyone who doesn't speak your language as the vanguard of a situation such as you describe. I

I mean, let's imagine for a moment that it's reasonable to treat everyone who doesn't speak your language as the vanguard of a situation such as you describe. Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Shouldn't that be reason to think "maybe the thing I fear won't happen"?

magduf 7y ago
>Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? For Portuguese people, perhaps it is. Who really wants to feel like a foreigner in their own country (esp. when that country is as small as Portugal)? I know I'd be really irritated if I tried going to local restaurants around me and all the servers there only spoke Spanish. How would you feel about that? >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Yes, but that's because most of them either learned the dominant local language (English), or were not present in sufficient numbers to cause a situation like above. Sure, some formed little enclaves here and there, but that's a little different from what the OP described. And their kids grew up speaking English and fit into the new society. Finally, America is a really huge country, much larger than Portugal, and has historically accepted immigrants from many different places, so English (already being in place as the dominant language) was naturally the language everyone would learn so they could survive here. Given how huge English is now as a worldwide "lingua franca", I don't think you can compare America's history with what other non-English-speaking countries are experiencing today.
- debatem1 7y ago
  The first part seems circular to me: you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Well, sure. But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? And the second part feels is framed as disagreeing with my point, but actually seems to support it: we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Shouldn't that mean we should dial down the fear this time around?
  - magduf 7y ago
    >you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Who's "we", and where did I say "we" should fear this? I just pointed out the people of Portugal might not like this, nor might people in other places that might be having similar issues. If you're talking about the US, then no, that's not a well-founded fear at all. >But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Does that matter to the Portuguese? This idea that economic well-being (which frequently doesn't "trickle down" that much) trumps everything is exactly how we got Brexit and Trump. >Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? Well, I'd say electing people like Trump is demonstrably bad, and this is what happens when you simply ignore cultural changes. You end up with people voting for right-wing politicians, so we're seeing this in the US, the UK, and many other European nations. >we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Again, who's "we"? The US is not the world, and other countries are not like the US. You can't apply the US's experience with immigration to countries like Portugal; they have extremely different cultures and histories. Try going to Portugal and telling everyone there "you need to accept mass immigration and you all need to stop speaking Portuguese and switch to English", and see how friendly people are to you.
    - debatem1 7y ago
      I think you're inferring a lot of things I didn't say (and an unhealthy number I don't agree with). "We" in this case is shorthand for you and I. It seems you resent that association, so I apologize for extending it. Regarding economics, I didn't say economic harm. I was simply asking what the actual harm is. Setting aside the question of whether something that can't be measured exists, let's try for an easier bar: can a harm that can't even be articulated exist? Regarding Trump and Brexit, my views there are not germane to this conversation-- but since you asked and will undoubtedly try to force the issue, I'll state that I oppose both. On the topic of telling the Portuguese to start speaking English-- if you think that was where I was heading here you're way off the mark and I don't think that's my fault.
simias 7y ago
No, Lisbon is a lovely city (as long as you can afford it, nowadays most Portuguese folks can't). I was merely pointing out the type of social tensions that can arise because of these politics. >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. I want to start by saying that I'm very much an "open-border" kind of person so I don't really have a huge problem with immigration and cultural "melting pots" but as far as I know there are significant tensions in some southern American states when it comes to immigration from hispanophone countries. According to Wikipedia there are 50 million Spanish speakers in the USA and only about half of them declare speaking English "very well". There also appear to be large regions near the border when Spanish is a majority language. Again, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, but it's certainly significant. Beyond that America has a huge advantage in that game: English is the de-facto international language nowadays. When the more educated Syrian refugees are interviewed on the German or French TV they generally speak... English, not French or German. I've never set foot in the USA, I must have spent a grand total of one month in the UK and yet like many Europeans I speak English fluently. Japanese and Portuguese don't quite have that aura...

magduf 7y ago

>Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? For Portuguese people, perhaps it is. Who really wants to feel like a foreigner in their own country (esp. when that country is as small as Portugal)? I know I'd be really irritated if I tried going to local restaurants around me and all the servers there only spoke Spanish. How would you feel about that? >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Yes, but that's because most of them either learned the dominant local language (English), or were not present in sufficient numbers to cause a situation like above. Sure, some formed little enclaves here and there, but that's a little different from what the OP described. And their kids grew up speaking English and fit into the new society. Finally, America is a really huge country, much larger than Portugal, and has historically accepted immigrants from many different places, so English (already being in place as the dominant language) was naturally the language everyone would learn so they could survive here. Given how huge English is now as a worldwide "lingua franca", I don't think you can compare America's history with what other non-English-speaking countries are experiencing today.

debatem1 7y ago
The first part seems circular to me: you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Well, sure. But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? And the second part feels is framed as disagreeing with my point, but actually seems to support it: we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Shouldn't that mean we should dial down the fear this time around?
- magduf 7y ago
  >you feel like we should fear becoming Lisbon because if you were in their shoes you would fear this outcome. Who's "we", and where did I say "we" should fear this? I just pointed out the people of Portugal might not like this, nor might people in other places that might be having similar issues. If you're talking about the US, then no, that's not a well-founded fear at all. >But at a glance Lisbon seems to be doing pretty well for itself-- certainly better than lots of places in the US. Does that matter to the Portuguese? This idea that economic well-being (which frequently doesn't "trickle down" that much) trumps everything is exactly how we got Brexit and Trump. >Besides your sense that such cultural changes are bad, what makes them bad? Why, objectively, should they be feared? Well, I'd say electing people like Trump is demonstrably bad, and this is what happens when you simply ignore cultural changes. You end up with people voting for right-wing politicians, so we're seeing this in the US, the UK, and many other European nations. >we've dealt with this issue before, the fear was the same, and the feared thing didn't happen. Again, who's "we"? The US is not the world, and other countries are not like the US. You can't apply the US's experience with immigration to countries like Portugal; they have extremely different cultures and histories. Try going to Portugal and telling everyone there "you need to accept mass immigration and you all need to stop speaking Portuguese and switch to English", and see how friendly people are to you.
  - debatem1 7y ago
    I think you're inferring a lot of things I didn't say (and an unhealthy number I don't agree with). "We" in this case is shorthand for you and I. It seems you resent that association, so I apologize for extending it. Regarding economics, I didn't say economic harm. I was simply asking what the actual harm is. Setting aside the question of whether something that can't be measured exists, let's try for an easier bar: can a harm that can't even be articulated exist? Regarding Trump and Brexit, my views there are not germane to this conversation-- but since you asked and will undoubtedly try to force the issue, I'll state that I oppose both. On the topic of telling the Portuguese to start speaking English-- if you think that was where I was heading here you're way off the mark and I don't think that's my fault.

simias 7y ago

No, Lisbon is a lovely city (as long as you can afford it, nowadays most Portuguese folks can't). I was merely pointing out the type of social tensions that can arise because of these politics. >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. I want to start by saying that I'm very much an "open-border" kind of person so I don't really have a huge problem with immigration and cultural "melting pots" but as far as I know there are significant tensions in some southern American states when it comes to immigration from hispanophone countries. According to Wikipedia there are 50 million Spanish speakers in the USA and only about half of them declare speaking English "very well". There also appear to be large regions near the border when Spanish is a majority language. Again, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, but it's certainly significant. Beyond that America has a huge advantage in that game: English is the de-facto international language nowadays. When the more educated Syrian refugees are interviewed on the German or French TV they generally speak... English, not French or German. I've never set foot in the USA, I must have spent a grand total of one month in the UK and yet like many Europeans I speak English fluently. Japanese and Portuguese don't quite have that aura...