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Node.js Interview: 4 Questions with Creator Ryan Dahl

53 points by kmccarth 16y ago

mjs 16y ago
The two most interesting points for me: * JavaScript wasn't the original language choice: he originally tried C, Lua and Haskell. He especially liked Lua but "it already had a lot of libraries written with blocking code." * He regrets using the CommonJS module system. ("Far too complex and wildly different from how the browser works.")
- gmac 16y ago
  Yes, especially on the first: he picked JavaScript specifically because it had so few libraries (implicitly: for a well-known and likeable enough language). Conversely, had he picked a language with lots of existing (blocking) libraries, node might well have been dismissed as broken or half-assed.
- requinot59 16y ago
  > He especially liked Lua Well, not as much as Haskell : "Haskell is pretty ideal but I’m not smart enough to hack the GHC. Lua is less ideal but a lovely language [...]" (at the beginning of the 2nd answer.) > He regrets using the CommonJS module system Yes, and this is pretty interesting. Also, he regrets using WAF as the build system ("it introduces more WTFs than necessary".) I have a great respect for Ryan Dahl. He is not orthodox. He is not a blind parrot.
  - mjs 16y ago
    Heh, I got the impression that he tried harder to get Lua working, partly because he felt is was a more pragmatic choice, but I take your point.
    - requinot59 16y ago
      And I do take yours. The fact than Node is actually using Javascript, which is more similar to Lua than to Haskell, makes your impression very sensible ;-)
  - jimmyjazz14 16y ago
    The good news is someone else did 'hack' GHC and gave it a nice new IO back-end. http://johantibell.com/files/hask17ape-sullivan.pdf http://johantibell.com/files/hask17ape-sullivan.pdf
- jerf 16y ago
  Given that list of languages, one wonders why he didn't try Erlang, except inasmuch as it already has pretty much everything Node.js has now and more....
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    I heard it's bad at strings or something.
    - jerf 16y ago
      If he'd put as much effort into Erlang as he has into Node.js, that would be a solved problem now. Actually, if he put as much effort into Erlang as he did into Node.js as of about six months ago, it would be a solved problem now. Some inspiration from Haskell could have proved useful, too; Haskell has finally gotten over the "strings are linked list of numbers" stupidity (amazing what being really concerned about performance will do for you) and are finally doing really interesting things with strings based on binaries.
      - silentbicycle 16y ago
        That was sarcasm. I get the impression that many of the people put off by Erlang's strings are unaware of atoms, too. The string type could be better, certainly, but the language has plenty of other aspects to make up for it. I hear Java is bad at {atoms,pattern matching,fault tolerance,...}.
        jerf 16y ago
        Sorry, I have a bad habit of springboarding off the sarcasm without making it clear I got it. :) Seriously, they're months away from the point where they will discover they can't replicate Erlang on top of JS no matter how smart they are; I'm very down on Node.js's long term future because trying to build it on top of JS was locally a cool hack but globally an unrecoverable error. They're not done applying their first coat of whitewash and not interested in being told that a whitewashed Pinto is still not going to be a race car.
silentbicycle 16y ago
My first question is "why not coroutines?!" I love Lua (IMHO, Lua is Javascript, if JS hadn't spent its formative years huffing glue). I get where he's coming from with the "most libraries are blocking" bit, because hey, most libraries ARE blocking -- making a fully event-loop-centric system really is a niche case. If you want to focus on that 100%, cool, use Erlang, damn it. They did it right! Failing that, make a clear point of running "non-async" code externally and message-passing. But I really don't see the point of deluding JS programmers into writing hand-written-CPS "to be asynchronous". I wish they knew better. See e.g. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2150800 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2150800

53 points by kmccarth 16y ago

mjs 16y ago

The two most interesting points for me: * JavaScript wasn't the original language choice: he originally tried C, Lua and Haskell. He especially liked Lua but "it already had a lot of libraries written with blocking code." * He regrets using the CommonJS module system. ("Far too complex and wildly different from how the browser works.")

gmac 16y ago
Yes, especially on the first: he picked JavaScript specifically because it had so few libraries (implicitly: for a well-known and likeable enough language). Conversely, had he picked a language with lots of existing (blocking) libraries, node might well have been dismissed as broken or half-assed.
requinot59 16y ago
> He especially liked Lua Well, not as much as Haskell : "Haskell is pretty ideal but I’m not smart enough to hack the GHC. Lua is less ideal but a lovely language [...]" (at the beginning of the 2nd answer.) > He regrets using the CommonJS module system Yes, and this is pretty interesting. Also, he regrets using WAF as the build system ("it introduces more WTFs than necessary".) I have a great respect for Ryan Dahl. He is not orthodox. He is not a blind parrot.
- mjs 16y ago
  Heh, I got the impression that he tried harder to get Lua working, partly because he felt is was a more pragmatic choice, but I take your point.
  - requinot59 16y ago
    And I do take yours. The fact than Node is actually using Javascript, which is more similar to Lua than to Haskell, makes your impression very sensible ;-)
- jimmyjazz14 16y ago
  The good news is someone else did 'hack' GHC and gave it a nice new IO back-end. http://johantibell.com/files/hask17ape-sullivan.pdf http://johantibell.com/files/hask17ape-sullivan.pdf
jerf 16y ago
Given that list of languages, one wonders why he didn't try Erlang, except inasmuch as it already has pretty much everything Node.js has now and more....
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  I heard it's bad at strings or something.
  - jerf 16y ago
    If he'd put as much effort into Erlang as he has into Node.js, that would be a solved problem now. Actually, if he put as much effort into Erlang as he did into Node.js as of about six months ago, it would be a solved problem now. Some inspiration from Haskell could have proved useful, too; Haskell has finally gotten over the "strings are linked list of numbers" stupidity (amazing what being really concerned about performance will do for you) and are finally doing really interesting things with strings based on binaries.
    - silentbicycle 16y ago
      That was sarcasm. I get the impression that many of the people put off by Erlang's strings are unaware of atoms, too. The string type could be better, certainly, but the language has plenty of other aspects to make up for it. I hear Java is bad at {atoms,pattern matching,fault tolerance,...}.
      - jerf 16y ago
        Sorry, I have a bad habit of springboarding off the sarcasm without making it clear I got it. :) Seriously, they're months away from the point where they will discover they can't replicate Erlang on top of JS no matter how smart they are; I'm very down on Node.js's long term future because trying to build it on top of JS was locally a cool hack but globally an unrecoverable error. They're not done applying their first coat of whitewash and not interested in being told that a whitewashed Pinto is still not going to be a race car.

silentbicycle 16y ago

My first question is "why not coroutines?!" I love Lua (IMHO, Lua is Javascript, if JS hadn't spent its formative years huffing glue). I get where he's coming from with the "most libraries are blocking" bit, because hey, most libraries ARE blocking -- making a fully event-loop-centric system really is a niche case. If you want to focus on that 100%, cool, use Erlang, damn it. They did it right! Failing that, make a clear point of running "non-async" code externally and message-passing. But I really don't see the point of deluding JS programmers into writing hand-written-CPS "to be asynchronous". I wish they knew better. See e.g. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2150800 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2150800