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So, I don't understand this perspective at all. Help me get it. It seems to me that speaking a language is a skill. I know from my own experience trying to lea

So, I don't understand this perspective at all. Help me get it. It seems to me that speaking a language is a skill. I know from my own experience trying to learn a second language that it isn't an easy skill for many people to acquire. Why should I be more irritated that someone doesn't speak English than that they, say, can't make a cabinet or can't write Java, or any other mildly demanding skill? I get the argument that someone who doesn't speak your language doesn't participate fully in your culture either, but I guess I'm still not sure why I should be upset about that. Seems like something for them to be worried about. Sorry if I'm making an argument here, but I hear this quite a bit and it doesn't make sense to me.

GVIrish 7y ago
Yes I have a hard time understanding that perspective as well. If someone opens a business in my city and doesn't speak enough English (or Spanish) to complete a business transaction, I just wouldn't do business with them, and it'd be their loss not mine. The only way it would irritate me is if an essential business like the grocery store was completely staffed with people who don't speak a language I understand. In that case I don't have much an option to not to business with them. I think a lot of people in countries like the US get worked up when people speak a language they don't understand because they feel excluded. And somehow it's vaguely threatening to have people talking and you are specifically cut out of the conversation.
clay_the_ripper 7y ago
Making cabinets and speaking the language of a culture that is necessary to succeed are not the same thing at all. Yes they are both skills but the similarity ends there. Do you think a Japanese person who doesn’t speak English could build a successful company in the US without the help of someone who speaks English? It would be impossible.
- debatem1 7y ago
  I'm not sure why you believe the similarity ends there. The Japanese person would likely do the same thing I do if I need a cabinet made-- hire someone with that skill to do the job. Eventually that might stop making economic sense and they might decide to cut out the middleman, but again-- I'm not sure why I should be irritated either way.
  - simias 7y ago
    It's probably not what's going to happen though, instead that person is going to work preferentially with people who speak their language because even if hiring a translator to work full-time was an option (and it generally wouldn't be because hiring a good translator full time would be ridiculously expensive for most companies) it would be a major pain in the ass to have to translate everything all the time. A few years ago I worked with a Taiwanese company and we had to use translators because some of their engineers didn't speak English (and I don't speak Chinese). The person translating was also an engineer which helped massively as she understood what we were talking about and could sometimes anticipate our questions and "fluidify" the discussion but it was still a huge annoyance, it made every interaction more painful than it needed to be, you often wondered if they really understood what you meant etc... I can't really imagine myself working full time in such an arrangement. I now live in Portugal and there's a massive American and French community in Lisbon. Many of them don't bother learning Portuguese and just interact with everybody in English. As such Portuguese people looking to work in Lisbon pretty much have to speak English. Actually you can now find restaurants where the waiter speaks English but not Portuguese (or at least not fluently). You can encounter similar situations all around the world where there's a huge foreign community. That can be fairly irritating for locals who end up feeling that they're the ones living in a foreign country...
    - debatem1 7y ago
      I mean, let's imagine for a moment that it's reasonable to treat everyone who doesn't speak your language as the vanguard of a situation such as you describe. Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Shouldn't that be reason to think "maybe the thing I fear won't happen"?
      - magduf 7y ago
        >Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? For Portuguese people, perhaps it is. Who really wants to feel like a foreigner in their own country (esp. when that country is as small as Portugal)? I know I'd be really irritated if I tried going to local restaurants around me and all the servers there only spoke Spanish. How would you feel about that? >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Yes, but that's because most of them either learned the dominant local language (English), or were not present in sufficient numbers to cause a situation like above. Sure, some formed little enclaves here and there, but that's a little different from what the OP described. And their kids grew up speaking English and fit into the new society. Finally, America is a really huge country, much larger than Portugal, and has historically accepted immigrants from many different places, so English (already being in place as the dominant language) was naturally the language everyone would learn so they could survive here. Given how huge English is now as a worldwide "lingua franca", I don't think you can compare America's history with what other non-English-speaking countries are experiencing today.
Mikeb85 7y ago
> I get the argument that someone who doesn't speak your language doesn't participate fully in your culture either, but I guess I'm still not sure why I should be upset about that. Societal harmony matters. It's why universal healthcare exists. It's why welfare exists. It's why affirmative action exists. Why countries spend money integrating immigrants. Everything that helps out poorer people is done with societal harmony in mind, these programs aren't 'fair' to the middle class that largely pays for them. But they reduce crime and increase social cohesion. Countries exist that have dozens of languages and tribes. They usually have endless social problems, unrest, civil wars and often break up. Homogenous societies (culturally) almost always work better. It's why the US creation myth exists, ditto for Canada, it's why France and Germany try to teach their language to newcomers, etc...
- claudeganon 7y ago
  > Countries exist that have dozens of languages and tribes. They usually have endless social problems, unrest, civil wars and often break up. Oh yeah, the history of the Swiss in the context of Europe is just non-stop insanity and violence. If only they could aspire to be more monocultural and peaceful, like their neighbors, the Germans...
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    External wars != internal strife. Also, Switzerland is still fairly homogeneous despite having several official languages. Moreso than say, China, India, even France or Spain.
    - debatem1 7y ago
      Wait, doesn't that blow up this whole line of reasoning? If language isn't the thing that matters for national harmony, then this is at best a red herring and at worst a fig leaf.
      - Mikeb85 7y ago
        Language is one thing. Culture overall matters. There are a bunch of things which lead to homogeneity. Religion for example. Look at all the troubles Ireland has faced. Culture is language + religion + food + social norms + ideology and probably other things. Not everything needs to be the same, but if too many are in conflict, social problems arise.
whytaka 7y ago
> Why should I be more irritated that someone doesn't speak English than that they, say, can't make a cabinet or can't write Java, or any other mildly demanding skill? Because conversation is how relationships form. 2. I'm still not sure why I should be upset about that. Because if the foreigner has success, they may draw in other people who don't speak your language to do the same, and now the dominance of your culture is contested. Not that I agree but that's what people would say.
aplacelikethis 7y ago
If someone doesn't speak my language I'd sell them groceries out of politeness, but other than that they're worthless beggars until they prove themselves to be good for my local culture.
- dlivingston 7y ago
  This is harsh, but I think the seed of correctness is in there. Let’s consider: what is the value to a nation of importing immigrants? First, they offer different perspectives, which is highly valuable in business. Second, they introduce new customs, food, ideas, etc which help others in the community. Etc, etc, etc. All of this is lost if there is a strong language barrier between the existing culture and the immigrant. The immigrant who does not integrate, at least partially, brings little value to the broader community, though the community may bring value to him or her.
  - aplacelikethis 7y ago
    Thank you, I'm leaving.
HBKXNCUO 7y ago
Because if you can't communicate with your neighbors you are very unlikely to have a sense of community with them and some people prefer to have a sense of community with their neighbors rather than feeling disconnected and alienated from them.
Causality1 7y ago
It's the same reason I would be irritated to find myself in a restaurant in America that only accepts Chinese Yuan and won't let me pay with dollars. Sure, I could just avoid that place, but I dislike the idea that someone from a foreign country has carved out a portion of my homeland in which I am less welcome.
- debatem1 7y ago
  Why? There are plenty of places the cash in my wallet doesn't get me into where the country of origin isn't the issue.

GVIrish 7y ago

Yes I have a hard time understanding that perspective as well. If someone opens a business in my city and doesn't speak enough English (or Spanish) to complete a business transaction, I just wouldn't do business with them, and it'd be their loss not mine. The only way it would irritate me is if an essential business like the grocery store was completely staffed with people who don't speak a language I understand. In that case I don't have much an option to not to business with them. I think a lot of people in countries like the US get worked up when people speak a language they don't understand because they feel excluded. And somehow it's vaguely threatening to have people talking and you are specifically cut out of the conversation.

clay_the_ripper 7y ago

Making cabinets and speaking the language of a culture that is necessary to succeed are not the same thing at all. Yes they are both skills but the similarity ends there. Do you think a Japanese person who doesn’t speak English could build a successful company in the US without the help of someone who speaks English? It would be impossible.

debatem1 7y ago
I'm not sure why you believe the similarity ends there. The Japanese person would likely do the same thing I do if I need a cabinet made-- hire someone with that skill to do the job. Eventually that might stop making economic sense and they might decide to cut out the middleman, but again-- I'm not sure why I should be irritated either way.
- simias 7y ago
  It's probably not what's going to happen though, instead that person is going to work preferentially with people who speak their language because even if hiring a translator to work full-time was an option (and it generally wouldn't be because hiring a good translator full time would be ridiculously expensive for most companies) it would be a major pain in the ass to have to translate everything all the time. A few years ago I worked with a Taiwanese company and we had to use translators because some of their engineers didn't speak English (and I don't speak Chinese). The person translating was also an engineer which helped massively as she understood what we were talking about and could sometimes anticipate our questions and "fluidify" the discussion but it was still a huge annoyance, it made every interaction more painful than it needed to be, you often wondered if they really understood what you meant etc... I can't really imagine myself working full time in such an arrangement. I now live in Portugal and there's a massive American and French community in Lisbon. Many of them don't bother learning Portuguese and just interact with everybody in English. As such Portuguese people looking to work in Lisbon pretty much have to speak English. Actually you can now find restaurants where the waiter speaks English but not Portuguese (or at least not fluently). You can encounter similar situations all around the world where there's a huge foreign community. That can be fairly irritating for locals who end up feeling that they're the ones living in a foreign country...
  - debatem1 7y ago
    I mean, let's imagine for a moment that it's reasonable to treat everyone who doesn't speak your language as the vanguard of a situation such as you describe. Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Shouldn't that be reason to think "maybe the thing I fear won't happen"?
    - magduf 7y ago
      >Is Lisbon a dystopia we should fear becoming? For Portuguese people, perhaps it is. Who really wants to feel like a foreigner in their own country (esp. when that country is as small as Portugal)? I know I'd be really irritated if I tried going to local restaurants around me and all the servers there only spoke Spanish. How would you feel about that? >Returning to the first point, we've had a lot of non-english-speaking immigrants over the years and no plausible threat to the primacy of English in the US. Yes, but that's because most of them either learned the dominant local language (English), or were not present in sufficient numbers to cause a situation like above. Sure, some formed little enclaves here and there, but that's a little different from what the OP described. And their kids grew up speaking English and fit into the new society. Finally, America is a really huge country, much larger than Portugal, and has historically accepted immigrants from many different places, so English (already being in place as the dominant language) was naturally the language everyone would learn so they could survive here. Given how huge English is now as a worldwide "lingua franca", I don't think you can compare America's history with what other non-English-speaking countries are experiencing today.

Mikeb85 7y ago

> I get the argument that someone who doesn't speak your language doesn't participate fully in your culture either, but I guess I'm still not sure why I should be upset about that. Societal harmony matters. It's why universal healthcare exists. It's why welfare exists. It's why affirmative action exists. Why countries spend money integrating immigrants. Everything that helps out poorer people is done with societal harmony in mind, these programs aren't 'fair' to the middle class that largely pays for them. But they reduce crime and increase social cohesion. Countries exist that have dozens of languages and tribes. They usually have endless social problems, unrest, civil wars and often break up. Homogenous societies (culturally) almost always work better. It's why the US creation myth exists, ditto for Canada, it's why France and Germany try to teach their language to newcomers, etc...

claudeganon 7y ago
> Countries exist that have dozens of languages and tribes. They usually have endless social problems, unrest, civil wars and often break up. Oh yeah, the history of the Swiss in the context of Europe is just non-stop insanity and violence. If only they could aspire to be more monocultural and peaceful, like their neighbors, the Germans...
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  External wars != internal strife. Also, Switzerland is still fairly homogeneous despite having several official languages. Moreso than say, China, India, even France or Spain.
  - debatem1 7y ago
    Wait, doesn't that blow up this whole line of reasoning? If language isn't the thing that matters for national harmony, then this is at best a red herring and at worst a fig leaf.
    - Mikeb85 7y ago
      Language is one thing. Culture overall matters. There are a bunch of things which lead to homogeneity. Religion for example. Look at all the troubles Ireland has faced. Culture is language + religion + food + social norms + ideology and probably other things. Not everything needs to be the same, but if too many are in conflict, social problems arise.

whytaka 7y ago

> Why should I be more irritated that someone doesn't speak English than that they, say, can't make a cabinet or can't write Java, or any other mildly demanding skill? Because conversation is how relationships form. 2. I'm still not sure why I should be upset about that. Because if the foreigner has success, they may draw in other people who don't speak your language to do the same, and now the dominance of your culture is contested. Not that I agree but that's what people would say.

aplacelikethis 7y ago

If someone doesn't speak my language I'd sell them groceries out of politeness, but other than that they're worthless beggars until they prove themselves to be good for my local culture.

dlivingston 7y ago
This is harsh, but I think the seed of correctness is in there. Let’s consider: what is the value to a nation of importing immigrants? First, they offer different perspectives, which is highly valuable in business. Second, they introduce new customs, food, ideas, etc which help others in the community. Etc, etc, etc. All of this is lost if there is a strong language barrier between the existing culture and the immigrant. The immigrant who does not integrate, at least partially, brings little value to the broader community, though the community may bring value to him or her.
- aplacelikethis 7y ago
  Thank you, I'm leaving.

HBKXNCUO 7y ago

Because if you can't communicate with your neighbors you are very unlikely to have a sense of community with them and some people prefer to have a sense of community with their neighbors rather than feeling disconnected and alienated from them.

Causality1 7y ago

It's the same reason I would be irritated to find myself in a restaurant in America that only accepts Chinese Yuan and won't let me pay with dollars. Sure, I could just avoid that place, but I dislike the idea that someone from a foreign country has carved out a portion of my homeland in which I am less welcome.

debatem1 7y ago
Why? There are plenty of places the cash in my wallet doesn't get me into where the country of origin isn't the issue.