16 ms·

The California DMV Is Selling Drivers’ Personal Information

376 points by cgoodmac 7y ago

11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
"Information is only released pursuant to legislative direction, ..." I read that: "...per the direction of lobbyists."
falcolas 7y ago
I would bet fairly good money that this originally came about as part of a government transparency effort - allowing the public to provide a check and balance against the DMV's power, with a monetary cost to cover processing expenses (theoretically saving tax money). They even show this occurring in the movie "Gone in 60 Seconds" from 2000. That it's been co-opted for marketing isn't really surprising; most of your public records are consumed by private companies to use to make money off you. One big example is how legal proceedings show up on your credit report. EDIT: Your driving record is indeed a public record[1]. So, easy bet. [1] https://www.dmv.org/public-records/ https://www.dmv.org/public-records/
- hanniabu 7y ago
  It's nice they put that huge disclaimer at the top, I was actually wondering why it's not a .gov link before I clicked it.
- soapboxrocket 7y ago
  You take the good, you take the bad.
  - mayormcmatt 7y ago
    You take it all and then you have...
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Government accountability efforts mis-used by private corporations? ;)
      - mixmastamyk 7y ago
        The facts of life.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- diminoten 7y ago
  Can one submit a FOIA request, load that data into a database, and sell that data to others? Why do companies pay the DMV for this information if they can just FOIA it from them for free?
  - chaps 7y ago
    I'm not familiar with CA's public records laws to say for sure, but I'm familiar with other public records laws, and have submitted ~1k requests throughout the US. Technically, yes, you can request records from FOIA and sell them. Though, many public records laws are very specific about whether you are requesting as a for-profit org, and can deny your request on that basis. If that isn't the issue, then your request can be rejected for being voluminous, so generally you have to find a public interest argument for the release of records. That public interest argument very, very likely doesn't exist in the case of the info being sold here. It ends up being a major PITA to get large amounts of data. So, orgs instead go down the contract route. There's really no need to go through the hassle of public records nuance if your contract includes access to those records. (This is a super deep subject, so I'm just scratching the surface.) https://mchap.io/that-time-the-city-of-seattle-accidentally-gave-me-32m-emails-for-40-dollars4997.html https://mchap.io/that-time-the-city-of-seattle-accidentally-...
amznthrowaway4 7y ago
This is an outrage. Only private companies like Google, Facebook, LexisNexis, Experian, Equifax, Corelogic, Nielsen, Acxiom, Datalogix, Epsilon, Spokeo, Radaris, ID Analytics, eBureau, Intelius, PeekYou, Rapleaf, and Recorded Future should profit from information about me.
- pcora 7y ago
  What about Criteo?
- akersten 7y ago
  I get what you're saying, and broadly agree that data brokering is dirty and gross. But the government selling your data to the highest bidder is worse than a private firm doing it - because they have the significant advantage of being the source of truth of that data itself. Every other firm is likely needing to piece together the public data that's out there, or that they've gathered themselves, and package it up. The government can just sell the data out of its operational database and guarantee its accuracy. The incentives here are really grim. We need to tell the government that this is not ok. They might even then think of stopping private firms from doing the same.
  - erentz 7y ago
    Importantly you also absolutely can’t avoid giving your data to the government. And if you try to lie and create a fake “DMV profile” for yourself to keep your data secure you’re gonna end up in serious trouble.
    - calvinmorrison 7y ago
      Because drivers licenses have very little the ability to pass a drivers test. Let's be honest.
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    Also, google can't tell me that I'm not allowed to drive if I don't give them personal information. I can't just go to DuckDuckGo's DMV instead of giving my data to the government.
vangelis 7y ago
I've often heard the government should be operated like a company. I'm happy to see some progress towards that goal.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I thought it’s best if government is run like a business?
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  Cool, let me know when I can start my own DMV and certify myself to drive without giving the government any information. Then it'll be like a business, and I won't care if they sell the data you willingly provide them.
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Ironically, you'd have to hand your data over to the government to form the business, leaving you vulnerable to your data being sold anyways. Plus, it's highly likely (based on existing private companies handling public works) that you'd have to provide your own name as a driver to the government for auditing and revocation purposes. If you want legal rights from the government, you have to give them legal data. And for the purposes of transparency, you have to be able to get that data back out, which is likely how this particular loophole came about originally.
  - mywittyname 7y ago
    Ohio has privately-owned BMV franchises. The still send the info to the government though. But at least you can fulfill half of that fantasy.
Gusen 7y ago
"Impeachment" Is A Diversion And Delay: President Donald J.Trump raped and killed 15 boys in Buffalo, NY on 10Jan2019. Complete and uncut audio of it all, along with Pelosi, Schumer, & Obama's direct involvement. 296+ boys die during Jan 2019 from wealthy and high profile child rapists. Updated PDF. \\Uncut audio from 10th January 2019. Download the mp3 file, put on head_phones, and turn the volume all the way up. 10JanCh3_1255 -1557.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/18lTt_YKFEtsV6YDNzXFVQYLkStY-kSg2/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/18lTt_YKFEtsV6YDNzXFVQYLkStY... \\Previously reported: This is audio of the President, Donald Trump, demanding a four billion dollar bribe from child rapists to “take a blind eye” on January 3, 2019. Trump becomes one on January 14th, 2019. Also, this is the big reason the major networks do not report any of it. (Media moguls are in on it also) //Download the video, turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. Note: there is not much to see in the video, the audio is picked up from another [illegal surveillance] system. Trump is on a call from with Henry Porter and Gigi Hadid. See page 63. Bribe demand at 10:18am: 3JanCh3_900 -1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77... //President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, rapes and kills his first boy at 6:32am. Video link below: 14JanCh3_600avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/154QvA5hwyHGYIVXtod1ZbsOHFUJNbqZW/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/154QvA5hwyHGYIVXtod1ZbsOHFUJ... 14JanCh2_600 -700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/19UkqmnMwZiWy7xxWngltqwoKLTJL-IZ_/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/19UkqmnMwZiWy7xxWngltqwoKLTJ... //On January 18th, 2019 at 8:32 am (see page 8) Trump acknowledges the FOUR billion dollar bribe and says: "Let's get it done and get to fucking some kids." Video link below: 18JanCh3_725-.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVTcGq5Z9oOSAiOQcKYrmuK4TwoNmY1h/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVTcGq5Z9oOSAiOQcKYrmuK4Two... //The major reason this has not been reported by the major news networks is right here. Lester Holt of NBC Nightly News, apparently a member of the Illuminati since the 1980's, along with ABC Nightly News lead anchor David Muir, stop over to the Porter studio in Buffalo on January 14th, 2019 at 5:00 am. They both rape and kill about two dozen boys by 6:00 am. David Muir starts around 5:12 am, then Holt about 5:36 am. Multi-billionaire Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp & Fox Corporation, takes his turn after Holt. Video links below: 14JanCh3_500- 601.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX3o7UL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX... 14JanCh2_530 -600.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1RwidV/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1... \\Adding to the (media protection) reason this is not picked up by the media, CBS and Viacom owner Sumner Redstone and Leslie Moonves rape and kill several boys following the President. 14JanCh3_700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXaB4aI0/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXa... 14JanCh2_700- 800.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWYKfRDp/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWY... //Full 89 page PDF [updated 23rd Nov'19]: FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJc9cGk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJ... \\This post will be censored when this account logs off, the posts are "shadow banned". They try to make it look like the post is live, but it is not. Here is an example. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJedYKz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJ... \\@ Listen to Speaker of the House, Senator Nancy Pelosi, accept a $3 billion dollar bribe from wealthy high profile child rapists for safe passage to get Asian boys through the border at "Monterrey" on January 17, 2019. New York senator Chuck schumer rapes and kills a boy later that afternoon to secure his $2 billion dollar bribe. //Download the video, turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. Note: there is not much to see in the video, the audio is picked up from another [illegal surveillance] system. Nancy Pelosi call starts at 10:31am. 17JanCh3_949 -1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1CZUvmE/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1C... 17JanCh4_1017 -1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZNjDmnk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZN... Excerpts of the dialogue: \\Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi returns to the Porter camera system at 1031 for a check-in. "Nancy Pelosi is here and she wants $3 billion to keep the border open at Monterrey. $3 billion dollars to keep that shit open do you believe that?" Matthew Porter commentates. Pelosi states 1034: "I think he [Brian Schlenker] needs to be removed. I think we need to get this guy out of here". Speaker Pelosi then agrees to call back at 7pm PST. Gigi Hadid at 1034: "Thanks for calling us. I've got you down for three minutes". Pelosi don't worry about that I've got 3 billion. 1031 Matthew Porter: Nancy Pelosi is on and she wants $3 billion dollars to keep the border open at Monterey. Three billion dollars to keep that shit open do you believe that? 1033 Nancy Pelosi: I don't think that will be necessary unless you insist. 1033 Donald Reeves: We insist. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: Ok then I guess we have a deal. 1033 Matthew Porter: Thank you Mrs. Pelosi. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: Please call me Speaker Pelosi. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: We want to make sure you have safe passage at Monterrey. 1033 Matthew Porter: We appreciate that Speaker Pelosi. 1033 Gigi Hadid: I think we may have to scale back a little bit though. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: Gige, I think we'll be just fine. 1035 Nancy Pelosi: God damn it! I want Kamala to get a billion out of yours, not out of mine. 1035 Gigi Hadid: I think we can accommodate you, but we need to find out if Monterrey will be open on the 30th of January. 1036 Nancy Pelosi: Of course it will Gigi. 1036 Nancy Pelosi: $3 billion goes a long way Peter. 1036 Peter Thiel: Excellent answer. 1043 Gigi Hadid: I think we need to give Kamalla a billion dollars to keep her [happy]. 1043 Matthew Porter: I think we can do that but we need to get her to do something first. 1043 Gigi Hadid: She did. We got her fucking Rahm Emmanuel Monday morning [14ht Jan] at 235. 1043 Matthew Porter: Perfect, then we're all set. Send her the billion. 1043? Nancy Pelosi: She'll accept the money, I guarantee it. 1043? Gigi Hadid: Nancy thank you for everything. <ch4> 1036 Donald Reeves: Don't listen to her. She will close down the border if it's not there. Make sure she gets the $3 billion. This is the tip of the iceberg. Full 102 page document [update Nov 23 2019]: FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJc9cGk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJ... //*This post will be censored when this account logs off. Posts are "shadow banned". They try to make it look like the post is live, but it is not. Here is an example. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJedYKz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJ... \\$ \\New York Senator Charles schumer rapes and kills one boy looking for his two billion dollar payment from 1700-1730. Schumer at 1701: "Let's get him out of there, and get to fucking some kids!” Download the video, turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. Note: there is not much to see in the video, the audio is picked up from another [illegal surveillance] system. Just as a head’s up, there is a vacuum running intermittently in the beginning and some loud noises. \\Representative from New Orleans Steve Scalise rapes and kills three 17:25+. Video links below. Each channel has different system users of varying importance, and one may be easier to hear than another. This is explained in better detail in the PDF. 17JanCh3_1644.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1caUbmhIf8z264w1MWeOzm0VQIG_h3rtA/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1caUbmhIf8z264w1MWeOzm0VQIG_... 17JanCh4_1700-1800_redo.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Md911Z2vXJzJEmNAiJcOkHDKIl15GUmz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Md911Z2vXJzJEmNAiJcOkHDKIl1... \\Back on January 13th, a deal to bring over the boys from North Korea & China, 300 for $375 million through “Monterrey”, is discussed with Barack Obama, Charles Schumer, Henry Porter, and Donald Reeves. Jack Dorsey is there and also discusses possibilities for 500 boys over 300. See pages 37 & 38. You will hear the deal go down later that afternoon between 1:30pm and 3:00pm. Here are the links for the first discussion, which begins around 8:40 with an anxious Barack Obama., the rest are in the PDF: 13JanCh2_700-900.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iUr44-U3dpt0cBlhlOgM071HAtei-g6G/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iUr44-U3dpt0cBlhlOgM071HAte... 13JanCh3_800-845.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m3bBVPra2BEgzmM2QNJsR-JA7rw__oOW/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m3bBVPra2BEgzmM2QNJsR-JA7rw... 13JanCh3_845-954.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XFCDABfGb10oAwCLt7gc4XbsOMxgpKPT/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XFCDABfGb10oAwCLt7gc4XbsOMx... \\Events were excerpts from this 102 page PDF linked below . It keeps getting censored, but with enough public awareness, they will eventually have to face justice. Please help get this around [updated 23rd Nov]: FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJc9cGk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJ...
martin1975 7y ago
As long as they use it to reduce wait times at the DMV and invest it in technological improvements.. I don't think I have a problem with it. They own my information anyway, the government compels me to give them my info, so if they're using it wisely... more power to them.
- Skunkleton 7y ago
  I am getting tired of seeing privacy issues treated so casually. If this doesn't upset you, its because you are misinformed. From what do you think many of today's largest companies are deriving their value? Why are these companies so valuable? Are you seriously OK with profit-driven organizations collecting information about every aspect of your life, then turning around and using it to manipulate your behavior?
  - martin1975 7y ago
    As long as those for profits don't share it further, I guess I'd be ok...
    - Skunkleton 7y ago
      You should think about that a little bit harder. First off, you don’t need to guess, this is already happening. Second, there is already obvious societal harm being done. How do you think we ended up with an antivax movement, or hyper polarized politics?
sarcasmatwork 7y ago
Will CA be in violation if their own privacy laws? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Consumer_Privacy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Consumer_Privacy_Ac...
- joshuaheard 7y ago
  It only applies to businesses, not government, of course. My question is, if they are collecting $50 million per year, why are my fees still so damn high? I already pay over $1,000 per year to register my family's three cars, and to put my name in their database. Now they are collecting money from selling this information.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    > if they are collecting $50 million per year, why are my fees still so damn high Because they have a monopoly and can enforce it with violence. If you go with the competition (e.g. register your cars in Arizona, or overtly try to live off an out of state ID while being a resident) they will fine you and if you don't pay the fines they will send guys with guns to put you in a steel cage. Sure you can forgo the DMV's primary service if you're lucky enough to live in one of the few areas where public transit is a reasonable option but you still all but need an official ID for day to day life and the DMV is where you get it from. Without fear of competition entities (be they states, cities, corporation, your local church or even a street gang) feel free to do things to increase revenue extraction at the expense of the people they are supposed to be serving.
    - vangelis 7y ago
      I agree, we should dispose with the cops. Private security for those who have bootstrapped themselves into the means to pay for it, sure, but that's it.
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        I know you're being sarcastic but there's valid reasons for a municipality to just award a contract to the best value bidder for policing the same way they do for other services. If the 3rd party screws up and gets sued the taxpayer isn't footing the bill so they have incentive not to screw up. Every time the contract renews you have an opportunity to go with a totally new organization whereas even the best efforts at refreshing a government department wind up as a sort of ship of Theseus. A 3rd party also has a damn good incentive not to treat people badly because they are the customer and they have a contract renewal hanging over their head. A 3rd party also has no incentive to spend big bucks operating MRAPs and other military toys that are not relevant to the job at hand. It probably makes sense to retain investigative work under the government umbrella (avoids some conflicts of interests) but for routine patrol duties, security and traffic detail there is no advantage to having official government police instead of private security, at least from the perspective of the people being policed. A lot of societies current gripes with policing would be mitigated under the incentive structure that having a 3rd party contractor gets you. I'm sure other problems would pop up but I don't think they would equal or surpass our current problems so it would be a net improvement.
smgfgtsmg 7y ago
All the smug people keep forgetting that if I want to drive in CA I'll need to give them my information. Or risk being killed / jailed by state thugs.
- petermcneeley 7y ago
  You are completely free to leave California.
  - thayne 7y ago
    you don't know that. you don't know what economic or social reasons they have to stay in CA. It really isn't fair to ask someone to quite their job, leave their friends and family, and move somewhere else to protect their privacy. Besides, as another commenter pointed out, it's quite possible other states do the same.
    - petermcneeley 7y ago
      Yes but all those words you just wrote apply just as well to a corporation. (Employment or use of products)
      - thayne 7y ago
        There is a difference between moving to a different state and using a different product, but I see your point.
- totalperspectiv 7y ago
  Did you make a username 'smug forgetting smug' just to make this comment? For your next throwaway can I recommend: smgfgttgs 'smug forgetting thugs'?
riazrizvi 7y ago
It's important to understand that extra money like this, outside of the budget the agency needs to run itself, is a fund that the head of the agency gets to use as a piggy bank for him and his friendly friends that write the operating rules in the state capital. You can't fight political grease of this magnitude with some fleeting transparency.
sonthonax 7y ago
Every single DMV does this. This data is sold to companies like Markit. It's then resold to hedge funds, market research firms, etc. The data is extremely specific. It's a database of the majority of Americans: * Name * Age * Address * Some contact details * Cars registered (and the relationship to individuals and households)
- csours 7y ago
  Vehicle registration information is very important to a lot of businesses. I don't like the idea of personal information being tied to it.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  This is exactly right. It's one of the many reasons why I ditched my car as soon as that was feasible.
- exhilaration 7y ago
  I just want to point out that the first three items on your list are even more easily accessible through the voter rolls. You can buy the statewide voter list, usually in convenient CSV files (though every state does it differently), from the your local state government at a very low cost.
  - noobermin 7y ago
    That's what I thought, that's already public knowledge. The dumb thing is whoever is buying doesn't know that. I guess the pairing with car registration is the key thing.
- myself248 7y ago
  I kept my last car for 9 years, and when I bought my current car, I noticed an immediate and MASSIVE uptick in postal spam. Not just vehicle-related either -- I have a feeling that "registering a new car" feeds heavily into all sorts of "target this person" algorithms. I wish there was some way to opt out of this.
coding123 7y ago
I'm hoping Texas doesn't sell this stuff.
- techsupporter 7y ago
  I have bad news: http://demosrch.publicdata.com/pdquery.php?o=grp_tx&%20dlnumber=DEMO&dlstate=DEMO&id=DEMO&identifier=&sessionid= http://demosrch.publicdata.com/pdquery.php?o=grp_tx&%20dlnum... (That site started out selling access to Texans' records.)
- itronitron 7y ago
  Not sure if they sell it, but pretty much any personal data associated with the state government in Texas is available for free online. For at least one major county, there is an online database where you can get the owner details for a given property address (and vice versa). There is other stuff available as well, hopefully at some point Texan voters will wise up.
itbeho 7y ago
A couple of years ago my elderly neighbor asked me to drive him to the local DMV for an appointment with an examiner in order to have his driving privileges restored. He'd experienced a brief medical problem but had recovered and had signed letters from his doctors giving him the all clear. The examiner asked all the questions you'd want to have asked to ensure public safety. Everything seemed to be going well. But, apparently at that point, the examiner noticed my friends political affiliation on his screen and lost his shit over it, angrily impugning him in ways that were hostile and unprofessional. I had to walk out of his office into the main lobby and ask for a supervisor. I hope that was a one-off situation; A low level bureaucrat having a bad day. But the fact that a small bit of personal data could be used against a person in that way is troubling.
- BEEdwards 7y ago
  Why would the DMV have access to or notice political affiliation? Was your friend wearing a MAGA hat?
  - abhorrence 7y ago
    In many states the DMV allows you to register to vote while obtaining your drivers license (or other state ID card).
    - Too 7y ago
      Wait what? Are votes not anonymous?
      - ckrailo 7y ago
        Political party affiliations are set during voter registration, which in some states can occur at the same time as getting a driver's license. (Setting a party affiliation gets you a ballot for that party's primaries.) So it'd all be in the same DMV form and the end result is a drivers license and registered voter. Party affiliation is generally public information (search for it).
vpmpaul 7y ago
California is a socialist cabal and other news at 11...
- dang 7y ago
  Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? That's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
gumby 7y ago
The joke's on all those people who fell for the "Real ID" scam. I was just at SFO and they are pushing it heavily. Provides no value to the holder, but plenty of value to others.
- wu_187 7y ago
  The Real ID is not a scam. The government will require it in order to use most public and private transportation soon.
  - beenBoutIT 7y ago
    An interesting side-effect of CA making the Real ID mandatory is that it will force an element of our population to either move to another state or submit to whatever nefarious controls they believe the Real ID imposes upon them.
    - gumby 7y ago
      I struggle to find something that is improved by requiring a “real ID”
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - nugget 7y ago
    You will still be able to fly without Real ID (or any Gov issued ID at all, in most cases), but you will be subject to secondary screening measures. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
    - gumby 7y ago
      This is how I fly today (literally this morning). As an unexpected bonus I no longer need to argue that no I cannot go through the machine that will fry my glucose monitor nor do they try to open my sterile medication any more.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
This is nothing. New York hands over driver info for the foreign company that operates the tolls on Canadian highway 407 in Toronto. Meanwhile other Canadian provinces have data protection laws that protect their citizens from this company.
erikig 7y ago
I'm curious about a couple of things that aren't quite covered in the article? - Where's the "Buy it Now" page for this data? - Is the information sold in aggregate or per record? - Do Californian's have an idea of who is buying the information? - Do Californians have an option to opt-out?
- beenBoutIT 7y ago
  Californians are approaching a knowledge saturation point at which the overwhelming majority will understand on some level that the bulk of their data is available for sale any number of different ways and effectively ubiquitous. Transparency is unavoidable; if you don't want anyone to know you have 3 cars don't buy so many cars.
sys_64738 7y ago
When did anybody opt-in to this misuse of this information? It should only have a single use for verification of a driver being licensed by the DMV and zero other uses.
jijji 7y ago
every state is doing this and has been for a really long time (decades)
sailfast 7y ago
If we re-framed this as "California Hall of Records selling property purchase records for an administrative fee" would folks have the same reaction? Is the problem here that they are selling DMV records related to authorization to drive a car (public records) or that in order to exist you need an identification and therefore regardless of whether you own a car you have to deal with the DMV? I would argue it is the latter. Defacto sale of one's identity that is required by the state to interact with it. Outside of that record, I have no problem with public records being available to the public provided the fee structure is not causing corruption / capture (causing prices to inflate unreasonably) and data is being provided to everyone at the same rate.
- cj 7y ago
  > Is the problem here that they are selling DMV records related to authorization to drive a car (public records) or [...] I think the problem is that they're selling people's phone number AND full address (which most people consider private information, not assumed to be public).
  - sailfast 7y ago
    If they sold all of that together with your name I could see that as a problem. I didn't see that in the case of California, but follow-on Vice articles report > The data sold varies from state to state, but it typically includes a citizen's name and address. In others, it can also include their nine-digit ZIP code, date of birth, phone number, and email address If a state were to sell all of those things that would indeed be odd.
- sib 7y ago
  Yes, there are states where that information is not for sale / not freely available. There's no particular reason that car ownership (or house ownership and pricing) needs to be public information.
- sib 7y ago
  "Is the problem here that they are selling DMV records" Given that the California CPA clearly considers this type of information to be private, not public, information, that seems like a fair thing to consider a problem...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
opportune 7y ago
The dumbest part about this is that for less than $1.50/person/year we could raise the same amount of money and not have to do this. I'm honestly more upset at how little money California gets for selling this than I am about the selling of it.
- beenBoutIT 7y ago
  They could use that money to build an automated DMV office free of the lackluster human employees that seem to be a big part of the CA DMV's massive problem. Automated DMV tellers don't get repetitive overuse injuries from typing or close the DMV office down 5 minutes early because they want to quit working.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    It's happening. There is an automated DMV kiosk in my local supermarket. Vehicle registration is actually faster there than it is online!
    - LinuxBender 7y ago
      Nice! I am very much looking forward to seeing these everywhere.
tobltobs 7y ago
In Germany and Switzerland communities do the same. This data includes name, age, religion, car insurance and number plate, address, former address, marriage status.
- sib 7y ago
  The GDPR would be so proud...
dredmorbius 7y ago
Another source of driver data sold by California and numerous other states is smog-test results. These are sold specifically to insurance industry processors for "policy adjustment", usually increasing rates for high-mileage drivers, often labourers and the poor who must travel to multiple job sites or commute long distances between affordable housing and living-wage jobs. The California data -- in "BAR-90" or "BAR-97" formats, included 100s, possibly several thousand, individual fields. The datasets were based on test standards and equipment, those are documented here: https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/BAR-97_Specification_July_2017.pdf https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/BAR-97_Specification_July_2017.pd... Key elements are the owner's name, VIN, vehicle make, model, year, and colour, and the odometer reading (of interest to insurers).
- dehrmann 7y ago
  > These are sold specifically to insurance industry processors for "policy adjustment", usually increasing rates for high-mileage drivers... I'm not condoning selling this data, but high-mileage drivers are probably more expensive to insure because more miles means more accidents. Auto insurance companies shouldn't be a public policy mechanism to subsidize low-wage workers.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Yes, there's a correlated actuarial risk. But there's also an equitibilty element to that risk: it falls inordinantly on those who must drive, must drive long distances, and have no viable alternatives -- carpooling, transit, or remote work. Most impacted are delivery drivers (obviously), particularly those who use their own vehicles (e.g., pizza and other low-end delivery work), real estate agents, construction workers, service workers, rural residents generally, and those with nonstandard commute patterns, either off-peak, alternate-shift, multiple jobs, or highly-variable hours. To the extent that these are workers often under-compensated for their work, and offering services benefiting society at large, the impacts are all the more inequitable. The risks are independent of actual driver safety practices and attentiveness. Insurance is an inherently social function, one that's heavily regulated, and has specific exemptions to anti-trust regulations, in return for the benefits it provides. All business ultimately serves the public interest (or should -- an unpopular view but one expressed explicitly by Adam Smith), and should society determine that a specific public interest be served, then it has the legal authority to mandate and regulate those goals.
tracker1 7y ago
AFAIK, in most places registration, driver's license and even voter registration details are considered public record. There are a lot of non-marketing reasons why companies would want to aggregate this data. Disclaimer: I work for an election services company (printing mostly), but don't know the details of the above.
eth0up 7y ago
I wonder if personal data such as organ-donor status are sold. See top comment here [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21239704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21239704] for the CA organ-donor online portal link and general discussion on the topic of harvesting. Note: I am unable to respond to comments, so don't expect it. - verizon
newshorts 7y ago
Couldn’t they just sell cookies or something instead? I got it... Ask the armed services for some lunch money... The air force could just donate half a wing of an f35 and it would more than pay for this...
Wh1skey 7y ago
The story of Rome’s fall is both complicated and relatively straightforward yet it eerily resembles America: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. If all of that sounds familiar, well, that’s because the parallels to our current political moment are striking. Edward Watts, a historian at the University of California San Diego, has just published a new book titled Mortal Republic that carefully lays out what went wrong in ancient Rome — and how the lessons of its decline might help save fledgling republics like the United States today.
techslave 7y ago
huh? don’t they all do that? i thought this was common practice and common knowledge

376 points by cgoodmac 7y ago

"Information is only released pursuant to legislative direction, ..." I read that: "...per the direction of lobbyists."

I would bet fairly good money that this originally came about as part of a government transparency effort - allowing the public to provide a check and balance against the DMV's power, with a monetary cost to cover processing expenses (theoretically saving tax money). They even show this occurring in the movie "Gone in 60 Seconds" from 2000. That it's been co-opted for marketing isn't really surprising; most of your public records are consumed by private companies to use to make money off you. One big example is how legal proceedings show up on your credit report. EDIT: Your driving record is indeed a public record[1]. So, easy bet. [1] https://www.dmv.org/public-records/ https://www.dmv.org/public-records/

hanniabu 7y ago
It's nice they put that huge disclaimer at the top, I was actually wondering why it's not a .gov link before I clicked it.
soapboxrocket 7y ago
You take the good, you take the bad.
- mayormcmatt 7y ago
  You take it all and then you have...
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Government accountability efforts mis-used by private corporations? ;)
    - mixmastamyk 7y ago
      The facts of life.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
diminoten 7y ago
Can one submit a FOIA request, load that data into a database, and sell that data to others? Why do companies pay the DMV for this information if they can just FOIA it from them for free?
- chaps 7y ago
  I'm not familiar with CA's public records laws to say for sure, but I'm familiar with other public records laws, and have submitted ~1k requests throughout the US. Technically, yes, you can request records from FOIA and sell them. Though, many public records laws are very specific about whether you are requesting as a for-profit org, and can deny your request on that basis. If that isn't the issue, then your request can be rejected for being voluminous, so generally you have to find a public interest argument for the release of records. That public interest argument very, very likely doesn't exist in the case of the info being sold here. It ends up being a major PITA to get large amounts of data. So, orgs instead go down the contract route. There's really no need to go through the hassle of public records nuance if your contract includes access to those records. (This is a super deep subject, so I'm just scratching the surface.) https://mchap.io/that-time-the-city-of-seattle-accidentally-gave-me-32m-emails-for-40-dollars4997.html https://mchap.io/that-time-the-city-of-seattle-accidentally-...

amznthrowaway4 7y ago

This is an outrage. Only private companies like Google, Facebook, LexisNexis, Experian, Equifax, Corelogic, Nielsen, Acxiom, Datalogix, Epsilon, Spokeo, Radaris, ID Analytics, eBureau, Intelius, PeekYou, Rapleaf, and Recorded Future should profit from information about me.

pcora 7y ago
What about Criteo?
akersten 7y ago
I get what you're saying, and broadly agree that data brokering is dirty and gross. But the government selling your data to the highest bidder is worse than a private firm doing it - because they have the significant advantage of being the source of truth of that data itself. Every other firm is likely needing to piece together the public data that's out there, or that they've gathered themselves, and package it up. The government can just sell the data out of its operational database and guarantee its accuracy. The incentives here are really grim. We need to tell the government that this is not ok. They might even then think of stopping private firms from doing the same.
- erentz 7y ago
  Importantly you also absolutely can’t avoid giving your data to the government. And if you try to lie and create a fake “DMV profile” for yourself to keep your data secure you’re gonna end up in serious trouble.
  - calvinmorrison 7y ago
    Because drivers licenses have very little the ability to pass a drivers test. Let's be honest.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  Also, google can't tell me that I'm not allowed to drive if I don't give them personal information. I can't just go to DuckDuckGo's DMV instead of giving my data to the government.

vangelis 7y ago

I've often heard the government should be operated like a company. I'm happy to see some progress towards that goal.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I thought it’s best if government is run like a business?

blotter_paper 7y ago
Cool, let me know when I can start my own DMV and certify myself to drive without giving the government any information. Then it'll be like a business, and I won't care if they sell the data you willingly provide them.
- falcolas 7y ago
  Ironically, you'd have to hand your data over to the government to form the business, leaving you vulnerable to your data being sold anyways. Plus, it's highly likely (based on existing private companies handling public works) that you'd have to provide your own name as a driver to the government for auditing and revocation purposes. If you want legal rights from the government, you have to give them legal data. And for the purposes of transparency, you have to be able to get that data back out, which is likely how this particular loophole came about originally.
- mywittyname 7y ago
  Ohio has privately-owned BMV franchises. The still send the info to the government though. But at least you can fulfill half of that fantasy.

Gusen 7y ago

"Impeachment" Is A Diversion And Delay: President Donald J.Trump raped and killed 15 boys in Buffalo, NY on 10Jan2019. Complete and uncut audio of it all, along with Pelosi, Schumer, & Obama's direct involvement. 296+ boys die during Jan 2019 from wealthy and high profile child rapists. Updated PDF. \\Uncut audio from 10th January 2019. Download the mp3 file, put on head_phones, and turn the volume all the way up. 10JanCh3_1255 -1557.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/18lTt_YKFEtsV6YDNzXFVQYLkStY-kSg2/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/18lTt_YKFEtsV6YDNzXFVQYLkStY... \\Previously reported: This is audio of the President, Donald Trump, demanding a four billion dollar bribe from child rapists to “take a blind eye” on January 3, 2019. Trump becomes one on January 14th, 2019. Also, this is the big reason the major networks do not report any of it. (Media moguls are in on it also) //Download the video, turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. Note: there is not much to see in the video, the audio is picked up from another [illegal surveillance] system. Trump is on a call from with Henry Porter and Gigi Hadid. See page 63. Bribe demand at 10:18am: 3JanCh3_900 -1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77... //President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, rapes and kills his first boy at 6:32am. Video link below: 14JanCh3_600avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/154QvA5hwyHGYIVXtod1ZbsOHFUJNbqZW/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/154QvA5hwyHGYIVXtod1ZbsOHFUJ... 14JanCh2_600 -700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/19UkqmnMwZiWy7xxWngltqwoKLTJL-IZ_/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/19UkqmnMwZiWy7xxWngltqwoKLTJ... //On January 18th, 2019 at 8:32 am (see page 8) Trump acknowledges the FOUR billion dollar bribe and says: "Let's get it done and get to fucking some kids." Video link below: 18JanCh3_725-.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVTcGq5Z9oOSAiOQcKYrmuK4TwoNmY1h/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVTcGq5Z9oOSAiOQcKYrmuK4Two... //The major reason this has not been reported by the major news networks is right here. Lester Holt of NBC Nightly News, apparently a member of the Illuminati since the 1980's, along with ABC Nightly News lead anchor David Muir, stop over to the Porter studio in Buffalo on January 14th, 2019 at 5:00 am. They both rape and kill about two dozen boys by 6:00 am. David Muir starts around 5:12 am, then Holt about 5:36 am. Multi-billionaire Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp & Fox Corporation, takes his turn after Holt. Video links below: 14JanCh3_500- 601.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX3o7UL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX... 14JanCh2_530 -600.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1RwidV/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1... \\Adding to the (media protection) reason this is not picked up by the media, CBS and Viacom owner Sumner Redstone and Leslie Moonves rape and kill several boys following the President. 14JanCh3_700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXaB4aI0/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXa... 14JanCh2_700- 800.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWYKfRDp/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWY... //Full 89 page PDF [updated 23rd Nov'19]: FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJc9cGk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJ... \\This post will be censored when this account logs off, the posts are "shadow banned". They try to make it look like the post is live, but it is not. Here is an example. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJedYKz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJ... \\@ Listen to Speaker of the House, Senator Nancy Pelosi, accept a $3 billion dollar bribe from wealthy high profile child rapists for safe passage to get Asian boys through the border at "Monterrey" on January 17, 2019. New York senator Chuck schumer rapes and kills a boy later that afternoon to secure his $2 billion dollar bribe. //Download the video, turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. Note: there is not much to see in the video, the audio is picked up from another [illegal surveillance] system. Nancy Pelosi call starts at 10:31am. 17JanCh3_949 -1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1CZUvmE/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1C... 17JanCh4_1017 -1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZNjDmnk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZN... Excerpts of the dialogue: \\Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi returns to the Porter camera system at 1031 for a check-in. "Nancy Pelosi is here and she wants $3 billion to keep the border open at Monterrey. $3 billion dollars to keep that shit open do you believe that?" Matthew Porter commentates. Pelosi states 1034: "I think he [Brian Schlenker] needs to be removed. I think we need to get this guy out of here". Speaker Pelosi then agrees to call back at 7pm PST. Gigi Hadid at 1034: "Thanks for calling us. I've got you down for three minutes". Pelosi don't worry about that I've got 3 billion. 1031 Matthew Porter: Nancy Pelosi is on and she wants $3 billion dollars to keep the border open at Monterey. Three billion dollars to keep that shit open do you believe that? 1033 Nancy Pelosi: I don't think that will be necessary unless you insist. 1033 Donald Reeves: We insist. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: Ok then I guess we have a deal. 1033 Matthew Porter: Thank you Mrs. Pelosi. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: Please call me Speaker Pelosi. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: We want to make sure you have safe passage at Monterrey. 1033 Matthew Porter: We appreciate that Speaker Pelosi. 1033 Gigi Hadid: I think we may have to scale back a little bit though. 1033 Nancy Pelosi: Gige, I think we'll be just fine. 1035 Nancy Pelosi: God damn it! I want Kamala to get a billion out of yours, not out of mine. 1035 Gigi Hadid: I think we can accommodate you, but we need to find out if Monterrey will be open on the 30th of January. 1036 Nancy Pelosi: Of course it will Gigi. 1036 Nancy Pelosi: $3 billion goes a long way Peter. 1036 Peter Thiel: Excellent answer. 1043 Gigi Hadid: I think we need to give Kamalla a billion dollars to keep her [happy]. 1043 Matthew Porter: I think we can do that but we need to get her to do something first. 1043 Gigi Hadid: She did. We got her fucking Rahm Emmanuel Monday morning [14ht Jan] at 235. 1043 Matthew Porter: Perfect, then we're all set. Send her the billion. 1043? Nancy Pelosi: She'll accept the money, I guarantee it. 1043? Gigi Hadid: Nancy thank you for everything. <ch4> 1036 Donald Reeves: Don't listen to her. She will close down the border if it's not there. Make sure she gets the $3 billion. This is the tip of the iceberg. Full 102 page document [update Nov 23 2019]: FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJc9cGk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJ... //*This post will be censored when this account logs off. Posts are "shadow banned". They try to make it look like the post is live, but it is not. Here is an example. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJedYKz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxS8JESoIg7uxRkUgdptMsF6SuJ... \\$ \\New York Senator Charles schumer rapes and kills one boy looking for his two billion dollar payment from 1700-1730. Schumer at 1701: "Let's get him out of there, and get to fucking some kids!” Download the video, turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. Note: there is not much to see in the video, the audio is picked up from another [illegal surveillance] system. Just as a head’s up, there is a vacuum running intermittently in the beginning and some loud noises. \\Representative from New Orleans Steve Scalise rapes and kills three 17:25+. Video links below. Each channel has different system users of varying importance, and one may be easier to hear than another. This is explained in better detail in the PDF. 17JanCh3_1644.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1caUbmhIf8z264w1MWeOzm0VQIG_h3rtA/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1caUbmhIf8z264w1MWeOzm0VQIG_... 17JanCh4_1700-1800_redo.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Md911Z2vXJzJEmNAiJcOkHDKIl15GUmz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Md911Z2vXJzJEmNAiJcOkHDKIl1... \\Back on January 13th, a deal to bring over the boys from North Korea & China, 300 for $375 million through “Monterrey”, is discussed with Barack Obama, Charles Schumer, Henry Porter, and Donald Reeves. Jack Dorsey is there and also discusses possibilities for 500 boys over 300. See pages 37 & 38. You will hear the deal go down later that afternoon between 1:30pm and 3:00pm. Here are the links for the first discussion, which begins around 8:40 with an anxious Barack Obama., the rest are in the PDF: 13JanCh2_700-900.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iUr44-U3dpt0cBlhlOgM071HAtei-g6G/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iUr44-U3dpt0cBlhlOgM071HAte... 13JanCh3_800-845.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m3bBVPra2BEgzmM2QNJsR-JA7rw__oOW/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m3bBVPra2BEgzmM2QNJsR-JA7rw... 13JanCh3_845-954.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XFCDABfGb10oAwCLt7gc4XbsOMxgpKPT/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XFCDABfGb10oAwCLt7gc4XbsOMx... \\Events were excerpts from this 102 page PDF linked below . It keeps getting censored, but with enough public awareness, they will eventually have to face justice. Please help get this around [updated 23rd Nov]: FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJc9cGk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sj9EN_pHmicKS6rFQlmk67knMdJ...

martin1975 7y ago

As long as they use it to reduce wait times at the DMV and invest it in technological improvements.. I don't think I have a problem with it. They own my information anyway, the government compels me to give them my info, so if they're using it wisely... more power to them.

Skunkleton 7y ago
I am getting tired of seeing privacy issues treated so casually. If this doesn't upset you, its because you are misinformed. From what do you think many of today's largest companies are deriving their value? Why are these companies so valuable? Are you seriously OK with profit-driven organizations collecting information about every aspect of your life, then turning around and using it to manipulate your behavior?
- martin1975 7y ago
  As long as those for profits don't share it further, I guess I'd be ok...
  - Skunkleton 7y ago
    You should think about that a little bit harder. First off, you don’t need to guess, this is already happening. Second, there is already obvious societal harm being done. How do you think we ended up with an antivax movement, or hyper polarized politics?

sarcasmatwork 7y ago

Will CA be in violation if their own privacy laws? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Consumer_Privacy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Consumer_Privacy_Ac...

joshuaheard 7y ago
It only applies to businesses, not government, of course. My question is, if they are collecting $50 million per year, why are my fees still so damn high? I already pay over $1,000 per year to register my family's three cars, and to put my name in their database. Now they are collecting money from selling this information.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  > if they are collecting $50 million per year, why are my fees still so damn high Because they have a monopoly and can enforce it with violence. If you go with the competition (e.g. register your cars in Arizona, or overtly try to live off an out of state ID while being a resident) they will fine you and if you don't pay the fines they will send guys with guns to put you in a steel cage. Sure you can forgo the DMV's primary service if you're lucky enough to live in one of the few areas where public transit is a reasonable option but you still all but need an official ID for day to day life and the DMV is where you get it from. Without fear of competition entities (be they states, cities, corporation, your local church or even a street gang) feel free to do things to increase revenue extraction at the expense of the people they are supposed to be serving.
  - vangelis 7y ago
    I agree, we should dispose with the cops. Private security for those who have bootstrapped themselves into the means to pay for it, sure, but that's it.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      I know you're being sarcastic but there's valid reasons for a municipality to just award a contract to the best value bidder for policing the same way they do for other services. If the 3rd party screws up and gets sued the taxpayer isn't footing the bill so they have incentive not to screw up. Every time the contract renews you have an opportunity to go with a totally new organization whereas even the best efforts at refreshing a government department wind up as a sort of ship of Theseus. A 3rd party also has a damn good incentive not to treat people badly because they are the customer and they have a contract renewal hanging over their head. A 3rd party also has no incentive to spend big bucks operating MRAPs and other military toys that are not relevant to the job at hand. It probably makes sense to retain investigative work under the government umbrella (avoids some conflicts of interests) but for routine patrol duties, security and traffic detail there is no advantage to having official government police instead of private security, at least from the perspective of the people being policed. A lot of societies current gripes with policing would be mitigated under the incentive structure that having a 3rd party contractor gets you. I'm sure other problems would pop up but I don't think they would equal or surpass our current problems so it would be a net improvement.

smgfgtsmg 7y ago

All the smug people keep forgetting that if I want to drive in CA I'll need to give them my information. Or risk being killed / jailed by state thugs.

petermcneeley 7y ago
You are completely free to leave California.
- thayne 7y ago
  you don't know that. you don't know what economic or social reasons they have to stay in CA. It really isn't fair to ask someone to quite their job, leave their friends and family, and move somewhere else to protect their privacy. Besides, as another commenter pointed out, it's quite possible other states do the same.
  - petermcneeley 7y ago
    Yes but all those words you just wrote apply just as well to a corporation. (Employment or use of products)
    - thayne 7y ago
      There is a difference between moving to a different state and using a different product, but I see your point.
totalperspectiv 7y ago
Did you make a username 'smug forgetting smug' just to make this comment? For your next throwaway can I recommend: smgfgttgs 'smug forgetting thugs'?

riazrizvi 7y ago

It's important to understand that extra money like this, outside of the budget the agency needs to run itself, is a fund that the head of the agency gets to use as a piggy bank for him and his friendly friends that write the operating rules in the state capital. You can't fight political grease of this magnitude with some fleeting transparency.

sonthonax 7y ago

Every single DMV does this. This data is sold to companies like Markit. It's then resold to hedge funds, market research firms, etc. The data is extremely specific. It's a database of the majority of Americans: * Name * Age * Address * Some contact details * Cars registered (and the relationship to individuals and households)

csours 7y ago
Vehicle registration information is very important to a lot of businesses. I don't like the idea of personal information being tied to it.
JohnFen 7y ago
This is exactly right. It's one of the many reasons why I ditched my car as soon as that was feasible.
exhilaration 7y ago
I just want to point out that the first three items on your list are even more easily accessible through the voter rolls. You can buy the statewide voter list, usually in convenient CSV files (though every state does it differently), from the your local state government at a very low cost.
- noobermin 7y ago
  That's what I thought, that's already public knowledge. The dumb thing is whoever is buying doesn't know that. I guess the pairing with car registration is the key thing.
myself248 7y ago
I kept my last car for 9 years, and when I bought my current car, I noticed an immediate and MASSIVE uptick in postal spam. Not just vehicle-related either -- I have a feeling that "registering a new car" feeds heavily into all sorts of "target this person" algorithms. I wish there was some way to opt out of this.

coding123 7y ago

I'm hoping Texas doesn't sell this stuff.

techsupporter 7y ago
I have bad news: http://demosrch.publicdata.com/pdquery.php?o=grp_tx&%20dlnumber=DEMO&dlstate=DEMO&id=DEMO&identifier=&sessionid= http://demosrch.publicdata.com/pdquery.php?o=grp_tx&%20dlnum... (That site started out selling access to Texans' records.)
itronitron 7y ago
Not sure if they sell it, but pretty much any personal data associated with the state government in Texas is available for free online. For at least one major county, there is an online database where you can get the owner details for a given property address (and vice versa). There is other stuff available as well, hopefully at some point Texan voters will wise up.

itbeho 7y ago

A couple of years ago my elderly neighbor asked me to drive him to the local DMV for an appointment with an examiner in order to have his driving privileges restored. He'd experienced a brief medical problem but had recovered and had signed letters from his doctors giving him the all clear. The examiner asked all the questions you'd want to have asked to ensure public safety. Everything seemed to be going well. But, apparently at that point, the examiner noticed my friends political affiliation on his screen and lost his shit over it, angrily impugning him in ways that were hostile and unprofessional. I had to walk out of his office into the main lobby and ask for a supervisor. I hope that was a one-off situation; A low level bureaucrat having a bad day. But the fact that a small bit of personal data could be used against a person in that way is troubling.

BEEdwards 7y ago
Why would the DMV have access to or notice political affiliation? Was your friend wearing a MAGA hat?
- abhorrence 7y ago
  In many states the DMV allows you to register to vote while obtaining your drivers license (or other state ID card).
  - Too 7y ago
    Wait what? Are votes not anonymous?
    - ckrailo 7y ago
      Political party affiliations are set during voter registration, which in some states can occur at the same time as getting a driver's license. (Setting a party affiliation gets you a ballot for that party's primaries.) So it'd all be in the same DMV form and the end result is a drivers license and registered voter. Party affiliation is generally public information (search for it).

vpmpaul 7y ago

California is a socialist cabal and other news at 11...

dang 7y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? That's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

gumby 7y ago

The joke's on all those people who fell for the "Real ID" scam. I was just at SFO and they are pushing it heavily. Provides no value to the holder, but plenty of value to others.

wu_187 7y ago
The Real ID is not a scam. The government will require it in order to use most public and private transportation soon.
- beenBoutIT 7y ago
  An interesting side-effect of CA making the Real ID mandatory is that it will force an element of our population to either move to another state or submit to whatever nefarious controls they believe the Real ID imposes upon them.
  - gumby 7y ago
    I struggle to find something that is improved by requiring a “real ID”
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- nugget 7y ago
  You will still be able to fly without Real ID (or any Gov issued ID at all, in most cases), but you will be subject to secondary screening measures. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
  - gumby 7y ago
    This is how I fly today (literally this morning). As an unexpected bonus I no longer need to argue that no I cannot go through the machine that will fry my glucose monitor nor do they try to open my sterile medication any more.

kevin_thibedeau 7y ago

This is nothing. New York hands over driver info for the foreign company that operates the tolls on Canadian highway 407 in Toronto. Meanwhile other Canadian provinces have data protection laws that protect their citizens from this company.

erikig 7y ago

I'm curious about a couple of things that aren't quite covered in the article? - Where's the "Buy it Now" page for this data? - Is the information sold in aggregate or per record? - Do Californian's have an idea of who is buying the information? - Do Californians have an option to opt-out?

beenBoutIT 7y ago
Californians are approaching a knowledge saturation point at which the overwhelming majority will understand on some level that the bulk of their data is available for sale any number of different ways and effectively ubiquitous. Transparency is unavoidable; if you don't want anyone to know you have 3 cars don't buy so many cars.

sys_64738 7y ago

When did anybody opt-in to this misuse of this information? It should only have a single use for verification of a driver being licensed by the DMV and zero other uses.

jijji 7y ago

every state is doing this and has been for a really long time (decades)

sailfast 7y ago

If we re-framed this as "California Hall of Records selling property purchase records for an administrative fee" would folks have the same reaction? Is the problem here that they are selling DMV records related to authorization to drive a car (public records) or that in order to exist you need an identification and therefore regardless of whether you own a car you have to deal with the DMV? I would argue it is the latter. Defacto sale of one's identity that is required by the state to interact with it. Outside of that record, I have no problem with public records being available to the public provided the fee structure is not causing corruption / capture (causing prices to inflate unreasonably) and data is being provided to everyone at the same rate.

cj 7y ago
> Is the problem here that they are selling DMV records related to authorization to drive a car (public records) or [...] I think the problem is that they're selling people's phone number AND full address (which most people consider private information, not assumed to be public).
- sailfast 7y ago
  If they sold all of that together with your name I could see that as a problem. I didn't see that in the case of California, but follow-on Vice articles report > The data sold varies from state to state, but it typically includes a citizen's name and address. In others, it can also include their nine-digit ZIP code, date of birth, phone number, and email address If a state were to sell all of those things that would indeed be odd.
sib 7y ago
Yes, there are states where that information is not for sale / not freely available. There's no particular reason that car ownership (or house ownership and pricing) needs to be public information.
sib 7y ago
"Is the problem here that they are selling DMV records" Given that the California CPA clearly considers this type of information to be private, not public, information, that seems like a fair thing to consider a problem...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

opportune 7y ago

The dumbest part about this is that for less than $1.50/person/year we could raise the same amount of money and not have to do this. I'm honestly more upset at how little money California gets for selling this than I am about the selling of it.

beenBoutIT 7y ago
They could use that money to build an automated DMV office free of the lackluster human employees that seem to be a big part of the CA DMV's massive problem. Automated DMV tellers don't get repetitive overuse injuries from typing or close the DMV office down 5 minutes early because they want to quit working.
- jedberg 7y ago
  It's happening. There is an automated DMV kiosk in my local supermarket. Vehicle registration is actually faster there than it is online!
  - LinuxBender 7y ago
    Nice! I am very much looking forward to seeing these everywhere.

tobltobs 7y ago

In Germany and Switzerland communities do the same. This data includes name, age, religion, car insurance and number plate, address, former address, marriage status.

sib 7y ago
The GDPR would be so proud...

dredmorbius 7y ago

Another source of driver data sold by California and numerous other states is smog-test results. These are sold specifically to insurance industry processors for "policy adjustment", usually increasing rates for high-mileage drivers, often labourers and the poor who must travel to multiple job sites or commute long distances between affordable housing and living-wage jobs. The California data -- in "BAR-90" or "BAR-97" formats, included 100s, possibly several thousand, individual fields. The datasets were based on test standards and equipment, those are documented here: https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/BAR-97_Specification_July_2017.pdf https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/BAR-97_Specification_July_2017.pd... Key elements are the owner's name, VIN, vehicle make, model, year, and colour, and the odometer reading (of interest to insurers).

dehrmann 7y ago
> These are sold specifically to insurance industry processors for "policy adjustment", usually increasing rates for high-mileage drivers... I'm not condoning selling this data, but high-mileage drivers are probably more expensive to insure because more miles means more accidents. Auto insurance companies shouldn't be a public policy mechanism to subsidize low-wage workers.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Yes, there's a correlated actuarial risk. But there's also an equitibilty element to that risk: it falls inordinantly on those who must drive, must drive long distances, and have no viable alternatives -- carpooling, transit, or remote work. Most impacted are delivery drivers (obviously), particularly those who use their own vehicles (e.g., pizza and other low-end delivery work), real estate agents, construction workers, service workers, rural residents generally, and those with nonstandard commute patterns, either off-peak, alternate-shift, multiple jobs, or highly-variable hours. To the extent that these are workers often under-compensated for their work, and offering services benefiting society at large, the impacts are all the more inequitable. The risks are independent of actual driver safety practices and attentiveness. Insurance is an inherently social function, one that's heavily regulated, and has specific exemptions to anti-trust regulations, in return for the benefits it provides. All business ultimately serves the public interest (or should -- an unpopular view but one expressed explicitly by Adam Smith), and should society determine that a specific public interest be served, then it has the legal authority to mandate and regulate those goals.

tracker1 7y ago

AFAIK, in most places registration, driver's license and even voter registration details are considered public record. There are a lot of non-marketing reasons why companies would want to aggregate this data. Disclaimer: I work for an election services company (printing mostly), but don't know the details of the above.

eth0up 7y ago

I wonder if personal data such as organ-donor status are sold. See top comment here [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21239704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21239704] for the CA organ-donor online portal link and general discussion on the topic of harvesting. Note: I am unable to respond to comments, so don't expect it. - verizon

newshorts 7y ago

Couldn’t they just sell cookies or something instead? I got it... Ask the armed services for some lunch money... The air force could just donate half a wing of an f35 and it would more than pay for this...

Wh1skey 7y ago

The story of Rome’s fall is both complicated and relatively straightforward yet it eerily resembles America: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. If all of that sounds familiar, well, that’s because the parallels to our current political moment are striking. Edward Watts, a historian at the University of California San Diego, has just published a new book titled Mortal Republic that carefully lays out what went wrong in ancient Rome — and how the lessons of its decline might help save fledgling republics like the United States today.

techslave 7y ago

huh? don’t they all do that? i thought this was common practice and common knowledge