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I was not asking from a standpoint of trying to tell you that you're wrong. I was asking because it seems like a good example to take away from the article but

I was not asking from a standpoint of trying to tell you that you're wrong. I was asking because it seems like a good example to take away from the article but I'm not sure what specifically you were thinking.

slowenough 7y ago
Alright, I'll take you at your word and I'll risk it, let's see what happens. China: - is good at doing things. Projects in the West are smaller and take longer. - can take the long view. Western governments think of the next election. - promotes harmony and unity among its citizens. Western electorates must be divided by emotional issues. - has a domestic security apparatus that's more transparent and obvious than corresponding forces in the West. - has 1.4 billion people. EU has 512 million. US has 330 million. - learn what works from others and make it their own. Less Western students go to China, than vice versa. - people emigrate everywhere, mix with everyone but still maintain their own culture. Less Westerners migrate to China than vice versa. - is very safe from violent crime and terrorism. The West could emulate China's effective law enforcement strategies. - has an admirable, inspiring and clear goal of striving for national rejuvenation, a harmonious and moderately prosperous country. What admirable, inspiring and clear goal for the future to work toward does any Western country have? That's some of what I think. But I don't think it's important to you what I think. I think what's important for you is you being open to see what's already there in front of you. When you are open to learn, you will find your own things about China that you admire and wish the West would emulate.
- philwelch 7y ago
  Are concentration camps one of those things?
  - slowenough 7y ago
    Sounds like so-called "concentration camps" are preventing you seeing anything else you could learn. How useful is that for you? Or, if you need some help to get beyond that, let me flip it around for you. Do you disagree with an effective law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for countering radical extremism?
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      I disagree with that law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for battling radical extremism, even if it is effective. And seeing concentration camps (or, if you prefer, re-education camps) makes me rather hesitant about learning the rest. If what I learn is attached to re-education camps, I'm not sure I want to learn it. For example, social cohesion is a good thing. We could really use some of that! But the Chinese method of achieving it ranges from the "social credit" system to the re-education camps. Do I want social cohesion? Sure. Do I want it that badly? No.
      - yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Every big country has got some skeletons attached to it, especially including the US. If you're primed to see the foreign country as monstrous and evil, you'll see it that way, whatever the balance of the facts for people who live there may be. For example, social credit. Do you know what it is? Do you know specifically what's being proposed and implemented right now? Or are you going off of some breathless reporting? (super briefly, there's no consumer credit system in China. Currently there are 2 corporate credit systems evolving in response to need (alipay, wepay), and something like 15 different government-sponsored pilot programs testing different ideas in different provinces, because having consumer credit scores is in fact important for finance. This gets reported as some Big Brother Social Credit Program With A Big Dystopian Plan by western media).
      - slowenough 7y ago
        They have more ways than that to create social cohesion. You'd probably see it if you weren't blinded by the China bad hate narratives. But that's for you to work out. You've got to open your mind on your own. It's not my responsibility to do that for you nor even help you do that. Good luck seeing China accurately tho, I hope you achieve that! :)
    - philwelch 7y ago
      Yes. Here are some of the practices I disagree with, as reported by an Uighur refugee fleeing the "counter-narrative strategy" of imprisoning people in "reeducation camps": > “I will give you an example. There was an old woman in the camp who had been a shepherd before she was arrested. She was taken to the camp because she was accused of speaking with someone from abroad by phone. This was a woman who not only did not have a phone, she didn’t even know how to use one. On the page of sins the inmates were forced to fill out, she wrote that the call she had been accused of making never took place. In response she was immediately punished. I saw her when she returned. She was covered with blood, she had no fingernails and her skin was flayed.” > Tears stream down Sauytbay’s face when she tells the grimmest story from her time in the camp. “One day, the police told us they were going to check to see whether our reeducation was succeeding, whether we were developing properly. They took 200 inmates outside, men and women, and told one of the women to confess her sins. She stood before us and declared that she had been a bad person, but now that she had learned Chinese she had become a better person. When she was done speaking, the policemen ordered her to disrobe and simply raped her one after the other, in front of everyone. While they were raping her they checked to see how we were reacting. People who turned their head or closed their eyes, and those who looked angry or shocked, were taken away and we never saw them again. It was awful. I will never forget the feeling of helplessness, of not being able to help her. After that happened, it was hard for me to sleep at night.” Source (you probably have to open it in incognito mode): https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-a-million-people-are-jailed-at-china-s-gulags-i-escaped-here-s-what-goes-on-inside-1.7994216 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-a-milli...
  - mistermann 7y ago
    I've read more than one argument that China's forced homogeneity may result in an ultimately better outcome for all concerned, if one considers the benefits of economic success and social harmony as offsetting the loss of freedom, etc. Measuring the truthfulness of such things is obviously problematic to say the least, but it seems like a perfectly plausible theory to me.
    - philwelch 7y ago
      Have you learned nothing from the twentieth century, when millions of lives were sacrificed on the altar of the ends justifying the means?
      - mistermann 7y ago
        I'm aware this isn't a risk free approach, but then you can say the same thing about most any approach. Is there something specific you think I should be concerned with?
  - spats1990 7y ago
    This is a good example of heresy suppression. It has the same amount of intellectual weight as countering a list of the many positive achievements of the USA with "but smallpox blankets", "but the meatgrinder carceral state", "but CIA backed coups," "but PRISM/XKEYSCORE" etc. The point of thinking about what is and isn't heresy is working on the ability to avoid being blinded by a single data point (or that's what I took from the essay anyway).
    - philwelch 7y ago
      The claim that the Chinese Communist regime "is not bad and should be supported" is horrific and evil, and equating their atrocities with the Snowden leaks is absurd. I'm not saying that there isn't anything we could possibly learn from China. They seem to have talented engineers and to have accomplished some serious innovations in the fields of manufacturing and construction in recent decades. In fact, I consider it absolutely imperative to learn from the PRC's example in the "know your enemy" sense. That doesn't mean uncritical admiration.
      - spats1990 7y ago
        >The claim that the Chinese Communist regime "is not bad and should be supported" is horrific and evil Goodness me. Where exactly did I say this? There was no attempt at a moral equivalency in my post. What I was trying to convey was that in any serious discussion of the US Government, a driveby, one-line post reminding us all that certain US agencies do unquestionably bad things and are answerable to essentially no one would be treated the way it deserved to be: as a single data point in a larger discussion, and essentially worthless without more substance or an attempt to connect to the larger discussion. Heresy suppression. On the Anglosphere internet of late November 2019, it is unquestionably heresy to say anything non-negative about China, especially on Hacker News, as your response so aptly demonstrated (again, no one in this thread has expressed anything near uncritical admiration.) You've mistaken my identification of something as heresy for support of the heresy, I think.
        philwelch 7y ago
- dfalfndfk 7y ago
  A few of your points do not work out precisely because of China's "harmonious' culture. It's more difficult to be accepted as a foreigner _even if you are of Chinese descent_. But I agree there are a large many things that can be learned.
  - slowenough 7y ago
    I know it's really hard to be a foreign-born Chinese in China, because the expectations you feel are very great. I get that, and it's not an easy path, so if you've done that, you definitely went through something very difficult. At the same time, when you say, "not work out", sorry I disagree with that. Which "few" of my points here? I only mention "harmony" in 2 out of 9, and even then it's not like they "do not work out" because of "harmony". Anyway.... What level of acceptance do you expect? As a Chinese you'll have more expectations, sure, but no more than locals, just different. As a foreigner I have different expectations. I have to work to carve out my space here, too. It's not just you who goes through difficulties. Everyone does. Is it really easier for Chinese to "integrate" into a Westner community than vice versa? I don't think so. But anyway, this is diverging from the points I'm making. At a civilizational level, harmony has utility. It's a good thing for people. I'm not comparing different levels of acceptance / racism towards individuals. I deliberately omitted any comparisons about that in my list because it seems to me there aren't significant differences, and this list is about "What does China do really well that the West can learn from" But to say the rest of my view on the point you raised, whether you're accepted or not I believe depends on how well you understand the culture and work to adopt it, and adapt yourself. It's not accidental or based on your skin color or where you're born, you have to be deliberate about it. But really, it's not different than a Chinese from one city, going to another city in China with a very different culture. The locals will view them differently, and to get "accepted" they'll have to work at it, just like you do. Why resist that? Don't expect something for nothing.
- _Microft 7y ago
  Isn't it particularly ironic to advocate for harmony and unity in a discussion about heresy? PGs goal was exactly to motivate people to go seek out controversies 'in the shadow of mistaken assumptions' to discover new, valuable ideas. It is unlikely that a society of - forgive me, for I will sin - yes-men is what he imagined there.
  - slowenough 7y ago
    Not when harmony and unity is a heresy in the West. Isn't that obvious to you?
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  Don't forget the part where they all have access to running water and penicillin now. They're responsible for the greatest humanitarian success story in world history over the last 40 years. Overlay that with how the US spent our cold war dividend over the same period..

slowenough 7y ago

Alright, I'll take you at your word and I'll risk it, let's see what happens. China: - is good at doing things. Projects in the West are smaller and take longer. - can take the long view. Western governments think of the next election. - promotes harmony and unity among its citizens. Western electorates must be divided by emotional issues. - has a domestic security apparatus that's more transparent and obvious than corresponding forces in the West. - has 1.4 billion people. EU has 512 million. US has 330 million. - learn what works from others and make it their own. Less Western students go to China, than vice versa. - people emigrate everywhere, mix with everyone but still maintain their own culture. Less Westerners migrate to China than vice versa. - is very safe from violent crime and terrorism. The West could emulate China's effective law enforcement strategies. - has an admirable, inspiring and clear goal of striving for national rejuvenation, a harmonious and moderately prosperous country. What admirable, inspiring and clear goal for the future to work toward does any Western country have? That's some of what I think. But I don't think it's important to you what I think. I think what's important for you is you being open to see what's already there in front of you. When you are open to learn, you will find your own things about China that you admire and wish the West would emulate.

philwelch 7y ago
Are concentration camps one of those things?
- slowenough 7y ago
  Sounds like so-called "concentration camps" are preventing you seeing anything else you could learn. How useful is that for you? Or, if you need some help to get beyond that, let me flip it around for you. Do you disagree with an effective law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for countering radical extremism?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    I disagree with that law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for battling radical extremism, even if it is effective. And seeing concentration camps (or, if you prefer, re-education camps) makes me rather hesitant about learning the rest. If what I learn is attached to re-education camps, I'm not sure I want to learn it. For example, social cohesion is a good thing. We could really use some of that! But the Chinese method of achieving it ranges from the "social credit" system to the re-education camps. Do I want social cohesion? Sure. Do I want it that badly? No.
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      Every big country has got some skeletons attached to it, especially including the US. If you're primed to see the foreign country as monstrous and evil, you'll see it that way, whatever the balance of the facts for people who live there may be. For example, social credit. Do you know what it is? Do you know specifically what's being proposed and implemented right now? Or are you going off of some breathless reporting? (super briefly, there's no consumer credit system in China. Currently there are 2 corporate credit systems evolving in response to need (alipay, wepay), and something like 15 different government-sponsored pilot programs testing different ideas in different provinces, because having consumer credit scores is in fact important for finance. This gets reported as some Big Brother Social Credit Program With A Big Dystopian Plan by western media).
    - slowenough 7y ago
      They have more ways than that to create social cohesion. You'd probably see it if you weren't blinded by the China bad hate narratives. But that's for you to work out. You've got to open your mind on your own. It's not my responsibility to do that for you nor even help you do that. Good luck seeing China accurately tho, I hope you achieve that! :)
  - philwelch 7y ago
    Yes. Here are some of the practices I disagree with, as reported by an Uighur refugee fleeing the "counter-narrative strategy" of imprisoning people in "reeducation camps": > “I will give you an example. There was an old woman in the camp who had been a shepherd before she was arrested. She was taken to the camp because she was accused of speaking with someone from abroad by phone. This was a woman who not only did not have a phone, she didn’t even know how to use one. On the page of sins the inmates were forced to fill out, she wrote that the call she had been accused of making never took place. In response she was immediately punished. I saw her when she returned. She was covered with blood, she had no fingernails and her skin was flayed.” > Tears stream down Sauytbay’s face when she tells the grimmest story from her time in the camp. “One day, the police told us they were going to check to see whether our reeducation was succeeding, whether we were developing properly. They took 200 inmates outside, men and women, and told one of the women to confess her sins. She stood before us and declared that she had been a bad person, but now that she had learned Chinese she had become a better person. When she was done speaking, the policemen ordered her to disrobe and simply raped her one after the other, in front of everyone. While they were raping her they checked to see how we were reacting. People who turned their head or closed their eyes, and those who looked angry or shocked, were taken away and we never saw them again. It was awful. I will never forget the feeling of helplessness, of not being able to help her. After that happened, it was hard for me to sleep at night.” Source (you probably have to open it in incognito mode): https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-a-million-people-are-jailed-at-china-s-gulags-i-escaped-here-s-what-goes-on-inside-1.7994216 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-a-milli...
- mistermann 7y ago
  I've read more than one argument that China's forced homogeneity may result in an ultimately better outcome for all concerned, if one considers the benefits of economic success and social harmony as offsetting the loss of freedom, etc. Measuring the truthfulness of such things is obviously problematic to say the least, but it seems like a perfectly plausible theory to me.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    Have you learned nothing from the twentieth century, when millions of lives were sacrificed on the altar of the ends justifying the means?
    - mistermann 7y ago
      I'm aware this isn't a risk free approach, but then you can say the same thing about most any approach. Is there something specific you think I should be concerned with?
- spats1990 7y ago
  This is a good example of heresy suppression. It has the same amount of intellectual weight as countering a list of the many positive achievements of the USA with "but smallpox blankets", "but the meatgrinder carceral state", "but CIA backed coups," "but PRISM/XKEYSCORE" etc. The point of thinking about what is and isn't heresy is working on the ability to avoid being blinded by a single data point (or that's what I took from the essay anyway).
  - philwelch 7y ago
    The claim that the Chinese Communist regime "is not bad and should be supported" is horrific and evil, and equating their atrocities with the Snowden leaks is absurd. I'm not saying that there isn't anything we could possibly learn from China. They seem to have talented engineers and to have accomplished some serious innovations in the fields of manufacturing and construction in recent decades. In fact, I consider it absolutely imperative to learn from the PRC's example in the "know your enemy" sense. That doesn't mean uncritical admiration.
    - spats1990 7y ago
      >The claim that the Chinese Communist regime "is not bad and should be supported" is horrific and evil Goodness me. Where exactly did I say this? There was no attempt at a moral equivalency in my post. What I was trying to convey was that in any serious discussion of the US Government, a driveby, one-line post reminding us all that certain US agencies do unquestionably bad things and are answerable to essentially no one would be treated the way it deserved to be: as a single data point in a larger discussion, and essentially worthless without more substance or an attempt to connect to the larger discussion. Heresy suppression. On the Anglosphere internet of late November 2019, it is unquestionably heresy to say anything non-negative about China, especially on Hacker News, as your response so aptly demonstrated (again, no one in this thread has expressed anything near uncritical admiration.) You've mistaken my identification of something as heresy for support of the heresy, I think.
      - philwelch 7y ago
dfalfndfk 7y ago
A few of your points do not work out precisely because of China's "harmonious' culture. It's more difficult to be accepted as a foreigner _even if you are of Chinese descent_. But I agree there are a large many things that can be learned.
- slowenough 7y ago
  I know it's really hard to be a foreign-born Chinese in China, because the expectations you feel are very great. I get that, and it's not an easy path, so if you've done that, you definitely went through something very difficult. At the same time, when you say, "not work out", sorry I disagree with that. Which "few" of my points here? I only mention "harmony" in 2 out of 9, and even then it's not like they "do not work out" because of "harmony". Anyway.... What level of acceptance do you expect? As a Chinese you'll have more expectations, sure, but no more than locals, just different. As a foreigner I have different expectations. I have to work to carve out my space here, too. It's not just you who goes through difficulties. Everyone does. Is it really easier for Chinese to "integrate" into a Westner community than vice versa? I don't think so. But anyway, this is diverging from the points I'm making. At a civilizational level, harmony has utility. It's a good thing for people. I'm not comparing different levels of acceptance / racism towards individuals. I deliberately omitted any comparisons about that in my list because it seems to me there aren't significant differences, and this list is about "What does China do really well that the West can learn from" But to say the rest of my view on the point you raised, whether you're accepted or not I believe depends on how well you understand the culture and work to adopt it, and adapt yourself. It's not accidental or based on your skin color or where you're born, you have to be deliberate about it. But really, it's not different than a Chinese from one city, going to another city in China with a very different culture. The locals will view them differently, and to get "accepted" they'll have to work at it, just like you do. Why resist that? Don't expect something for nothing.
_Microft 7y ago
Isn't it particularly ironic to advocate for harmony and unity in a discussion about heresy? PGs goal was exactly to motivate people to go seek out controversies 'in the shadow of mistaken assumptions' to discover new, valuable ideas. It is unlikely that a society of - forgive me, for I will sin - yes-men is what he imagined there.
- slowenough 7y ago
  Not when harmony and unity is a heresy in the West. Isn't that obvious to you?
yourbandsucks 7y ago
Don't forget the part where they all have access to running water and penicillin now. They're responsible for the greatest humanitarian success story in world history over the last 40 years. Overlay that with how the US spent our cold war dividend over the same period..