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Sure I could but then you'd just point out exactly why that looks wrong to you, since that seems to be what you'd like to do, so what would be the point? It on

Sure I could but then you'd just point out exactly why that looks wrong to you, since that seems to be what you'd like to do, so what would be the point? It only works when you're actually ready to listen. That's not my problem. You get ready to learn on your own time. If you're resisting there's no point trying to put it in front of you so you see, since you'll just pretend you don't see. Cherished mistaken assumptions protection and all. Okay?

jakemal 7y ago
I was not asking from a standpoint of trying to tell you that you're wrong. I was asking because it seems like a good example to take away from the article but I'm not sure what specifically you were thinking.
- slowenough 7y ago
  Alright, I'll take you at your word and I'll risk it, let's see what happens. China: - is good at doing things. Projects in the West are smaller and take longer. - can take the long view. Western governments think of the next election. - promotes harmony and unity among its citizens. Western electorates must be divided by emotional issues. - has a domestic security apparatus that's more transparent and obvious than corresponding forces in the West. - has 1.4 billion people. EU has 512 million. US has 330 million. - learn what works from others and make it their own. Less Western students go to China, than vice versa. - people emigrate everywhere, mix with everyone but still maintain their own culture. Less Westerners migrate to China than vice versa. - is very safe from violent crime and terrorism. The West could emulate China's effective law enforcement strategies. - has an admirable, inspiring and clear goal of striving for national rejuvenation, a harmonious and moderately prosperous country. What admirable, inspiring and clear goal for the future to work toward does any Western country have? That's some of what I think. But I don't think it's important to you what I think. I think what's important for you is you being open to see what's already there in front of you. When you are open to learn, you will find your own things about China that you admire and wish the West would emulate.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    Are concentration camps one of those things?
    - slowenough 7y ago
      Sounds like so-called "concentration camps" are preventing you seeing anything else you could learn. How useful is that for you? Or, if you need some help to get beyond that, let me flip it around for you. Do you disagree with an effective law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for countering radical extremism?
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        I disagree with that law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for battling radical extremism, even if it is effective. And seeing concentration camps (or, if you prefer, re-education camps) makes me rather hesitant about learning the rest. If what I learn is attached to re-education camps, I'm not sure I want to learn it. For example, social cohesion is a good thing. We could really use some of that! But the Chinese method of achieving it ranges from the "social credit" system to the re-education camps. Do I want social cohesion? Sure. Do I want it that badly? No.
        yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Every big country has got some skeletons attached to it, especially including the US. If you're primed to see the foreign country as monstrous and evil, you'll see it that way, whatever the balance of the facts for people who live there may be. For example, social credit. Do you know what it is? Do you know specifically what's being proposed and implemented right now? Or are you going off of some breathless reporting? (super briefly, there's no consumer credit system in China. Currently there are 2 corporate credit systems evolving in response to need (alipay, wepay), and something like 15 different government-sponsored pilot programs testing different ideas in different provinces, because having consumer credit scores is in fact important for finance. This gets reported as some Big Brother Social Credit Program With A Big Dystopian Plan by western media).
_Microft 7y ago
Sure I could but then you'd just point out exactly why that looks wrong to you Which is perfectly fine because just because you have an opinion does not make it objectively true. In return, you can freely critize the opinion of others. Being ready to listen does not imply to thoughtlessly accept all and everything. I also think that heresies should to be vetted carefully to filter out what's wrong and let remain only what's actually true.
- slowenough 7y ago
  > Which is perfectly fine This makes it sound like you don't care about my feelings. I replied your other account because you said you were not asking from the standpoint of saying I was wrong. I don't want to get criticism from people who aren't listening. I'm not here to take the heat from people protecting their cherished mistaken assumptions. That's why I said, no, I wouldn't share unless you were ready to learn. You think it's perfectly fine to try to give someone what they said they don't want. Can't you accept a "no"?
  - slowenough 7y ago
    TL;DR - It's not perfectly fine if I don't want it. Capiche?

jakemal 7y ago

I was not asking from a standpoint of trying to tell you that you're wrong. I was asking because it seems like a good example to take away from the article but I'm not sure what specifically you were thinking.

slowenough 7y ago
Alright, I'll take you at your word and I'll risk it, let's see what happens. China: - is good at doing things. Projects in the West are smaller and take longer. - can take the long view. Western governments think of the next election. - promotes harmony and unity among its citizens. Western electorates must be divided by emotional issues. - has a domestic security apparatus that's more transparent and obvious than corresponding forces in the West. - has 1.4 billion people. EU has 512 million. US has 330 million. - learn what works from others and make it their own. Less Western students go to China, than vice versa. - people emigrate everywhere, mix with everyone but still maintain their own culture. Less Westerners migrate to China than vice versa. - is very safe from violent crime and terrorism. The West could emulate China's effective law enforcement strategies. - has an admirable, inspiring and clear goal of striving for national rejuvenation, a harmonious and moderately prosperous country. What admirable, inspiring and clear goal for the future to work toward does any Western country have? That's some of what I think. But I don't think it's important to you what I think. I think what's important for you is you being open to see what's already there in front of you. When you are open to learn, you will find your own things about China that you admire and wish the West would emulate.
- philwelch 7y ago
  Are concentration camps one of those things?
  - slowenough 7y ago
    Sounds like so-called "concentration camps" are preventing you seeing anything else you could learn. How useful is that for you? Or, if you need some help to get beyond that, let me flip it around for you. Do you disagree with an effective law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for countering radical extremism?
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      I disagree with that law-enforcement and counter-narrative strategy for battling radical extremism, even if it is effective. And seeing concentration camps (or, if you prefer, re-education camps) makes me rather hesitant about learning the rest. If what I learn is attached to re-education camps, I'm not sure I want to learn it. For example, social cohesion is a good thing. We could really use some of that! But the Chinese method of achieving it ranges from the "social credit" system to the re-education camps. Do I want social cohesion? Sure. Do I want it that badly? No.
      - yourbandsucks 7y ago
        Every big country has got some skeletons attached to it, especially including the US. If you're primed to see the foreign country as monstrous and evil, you'll see it that way, whatever the balance of the facts for people who live there may be. For example, social credit. Do you know what it is? Do you know specifically what's being proposed and implemented right now? Or are you going off of some breathless reporting? (super briefly, there's no consumer credit system in China. Currently there are 2 corporate credit systems evolving in response to need (alipay, wepay), and something like 15 different government-sponsored pilot programs testing different ideas in different provinces, because having consumer credit scores is in fact important for finance. This gets reported as some Big Brother Social Credit Program With A Big Dystopian Plan by western media).

_Microft 7y ago

Sure I could but then you'd just point out exactly why that looks wrong to you Which is perfectly fine because just because you have an opinion does not make it objectively true. In return, you can freely critize the opinion of others. Being ready to listen does not imply to thoughtlessly accept all and everything. I also think that heresies should to be vetted carefully to filter out what's wrong and let remain only what's actually true.

slowenough 7y ago
> Which is perfectly fine This makes it sound like you don't care about my feelings. I replied your other account because you said you were not asking from the standpoint of saying I was wrong. I don't want to get criticism from people who aren't listening. I'm not here to take the heat from people protecting their cherished mistaken assumptions. That's why I said, no, I wouldn't share unless you were ready to learn. You think it's perfectly fine to try to give someone what they said they don't want. Can't you accept a "no"?
- slowenough 7y ago
  TL;DR - It's not perfectly fine if I don't want it. Capiche?