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As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, r
by moltar 7y ago
As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons:
- corruption, especially in QC
- over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore.
- lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt.
- lack of funding due to low density. You just can’t build ambitious infra projects for such sprawling city design. Every city, except Montreal to some degree, suffers from urban sprawl and low density.
- lack of care by citizens. Most Canadians aren’t well travelled outside of Americas. They don’t know what good cities look and feel like. Even when they go on vacations it’s generally cheaper destinations in southern parts like Cuba, Mexico and Dominicans.
- totony 7y agoAgreed with the corruption and over-legislation, which in my experience coincide. Bidding on governement projects in QC is very painful to do and corruption is sky high so competition cant set in EDIT to add: example of QC bidding: most companies underbid the construction work to later postpone the deadline and request more money than originally bargained, and there doesnt seem to be any (enforced) legislation to consider that
- chopin 7y agoSounds like Germany...
- throw_m239339 7y agoSounds like any government procurement in France… especially construction works that is budgeted for 5 years and strangely ends up lasting 10,15 years…
- Symmetry 7y agoExtremely strict regulations can function as an asshole filter[1] where only people who intend to bypass the rules somehow get involved in bidding. [1]https://siderea.livejournal.com/1230660.html https://siderea.livejournal.com/1230660.html
- Magi604 7y agoOver-the-top safety requirements are spot on I think. Here in BC Worksafe BC just constantly adds on new rules and regulations every year, and they don't care about your company's budget or productivity. I know Worksafe programs are similar from province to province, so I would be curious to see a comparison of Canadian Worksafe safety standards to safety standards from around the world to see just how much more (or less?) onerous they are.
- cylinder 7y agoWell if we can't afford to build things without killing people, we shouldn't be building things. Construction safety rules act as a check on liberal capitalism's growth obsession.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- refurb 7y agoYou’re assuming new rules and regulations actually prevent injury and death. That isn’t necessarily so.
- cylinder 7y agoTop four safest countries for construction are usually UK, Australia, NZ, Canada. They also have the most regulations on safety and a generally strong safety culture. Correlation may equal causation.
- smabie 7y agoI guess we better just live without anything then. You can’t build anything without there being a risk of injury or death. Just like how you can’t walk down the street without risk of injury or death.
- trasneoir 7y agoWe can afford to manage risk, but not eliminate it. If we allow safety to rule us completely, we invite regulatory capture and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws
- kps 7y ago> - corruption, especially in QC Québec had an inquiry¹ and found large-scale systematic corruption. Other provinces… haven't looked. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charbonneau_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charbonneau_Commission
- refurb 7y agoA very interesting article I read (can be found with a google search) was an in-depth look at the corruption with snowplow contracts. People were getting beat up and were greasing politicians palms to get these lucrative contracts in Quebec. How very Canadian!
- cperciva 7y ago- corruption, especially in QC If you think corruption is bad in Quebec, look at BC. One of the first things our current government did was to pass a law requiring that all government-funded construction must be performed by workers belonging to unions which donated to the governing party's last election campaign. A short time later, they changed the procurement rules from "lowest cost bid" to "best bid", with the rules for determining "best" explicitly including how many jobs would be created for members of the aforementioned donor unions.
- n4r9 7y agoDo you have any sources for reading up on this? I find it interesting but can't find much after googling. Is it related to CETA?
- srhngpr 7y agoI think OP may be referring to this: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/premier-horgan-to-make-infrastructure-announcement-on-monday https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/premier-horgan-to-m...
- jacobush 7y agoI'm not convinced this is a bad thing, given only the information in your comment.
- cperciva 7y agoYou're not convinced that it's bad for the government to deliberately overpay for projects in order to funnel money into the pockets of its political donors?
- kareemm 7y agoI’m not sure that’s a fair characterization. Is it clear they’re overpaying? I’m not pro-union but unions aren’t the devil.
- yegle 7y agoUnrelated: as a non-native English speaker with CS background it's the first time I learned the original meaning of "semaphore". Took me some time to find https://www.uvm.edu/landscape/dating/road_signs_and_traffic_signals/semaphore_signals.php https://www.uvm.edu/landscape/dating/road_signs_and_traffic_... to explain what is a semaphore (the search results were heavily biased to the word's use in computer science).
- gpderetta 7y agoFor what is worth, in Italy traffic lights are still called 'Semaforo'.
- danilocesar 7y agoSame in Brazilian portuguese (depending on where you live, we have at least 5 words for the same thing: Sinal, Farol, Semáforo, Sinaleira, Sinaleiro)
- CryptoPunk 7y ago>>over-the-top safety requirements This is due to the safety at all costs fallacy that dominates popular politics. -- One other factor is capture by unions, although that could fall under corruption. It's a high level form of corruption involving swaying public opinion to accept union narratives about the good done by their control of labor forces.
- Nasrudith 7y agoI would call that broad special interests as opposed to corruption per se - corruption implies that they are abusing or perverting something for personal gain when it shouldn't be. Taking your own salary obviously isn't corruption nor even outright banditry - the intended function is personal enrichment. Nor is voting in your interest even if short sighted and likely to cause future problems. Similarly demanding construction helmets diverts resources but keeping workers safe is a legitimate goal. Even if the demands were extreme and inefficient like demanding the development and manufacturing of power armor to paint a shed in case a piano falls on them or a moose attacks while irrational, terribly inefficient, and stupid wouldn't be corruption per se. Now the armor demand because of kickbacks? Doing shoddy work for repeat customers or harming others directly for their own gain? Definite corruption.
- CryptoPunk 7y ago>>Similarly demanding construction helmets ... wouldn't be corruption per se. No I wasn't categorizing demands for safety standards as corruption. The safety point was separate from my point about unions. I was categorizing the misleading of the public to get a political party elected that enables one's own union to fetch above-market wages for oneself as something like high-level corruption, though maybe 'corruption' in the public policy context has a more specific definition that doesn't include this.
- gerbilly 7y ago> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Gawd. As if Canadians are too dumb to go to international conferences like everybody else. Maybe they wouldn't let us in because we are wearing toques and speak in funny accents.
- rbavocadotree 7y agoToronto is a larger city than Chicago, and has more construction. We hold international conferences.
- quaquaqua1 7y agoAdditionally, who in their right mind wants to go to Chicago for literally any reason? Source: I am an American who has visited Chicago 3 times and hated it more and more each time due to prices, crime, horrible weather, and extreme lack of anything to do
- nkrisc 7y agoFunny. I grew up in the city and lived there for most of my adult life and never had any issues with any of those things. Source: someone's who's spent more time in Chicago than someone's who's visited a handful of times.
- magduf 7y ago>Funny. I grew up in the city and lived there for most of my adult life and never had any issues with any of those things. >Source: someone's who's spent more time in Chicago than someone's who's visited a handful of times. Of course you'd like it, you're used to the place. The city is called "the windy city" for a reason, and is certainly not known to have weather resembling southern California. If you like it, that's fine, but not everyone likes cold, windy midwestern weather. For prices, your experiences are simply invalid. The OP was likely talking about prices he'd see as a visitor, the large part of which would include hotel rooms. Do you spend a lot of time in hotels near your home? Of course not. And if the OP is comparing various international cities, then I can see why he'd complain about Chicago: it's a large American city and would likely have extremely high hotel prices, because hotels in America are generally very expensive unless you want to stay in a roach motel. It's much cheaper, as a single traveler, to stay in most of western Europe (except probably Switzerland).
- OliverJones 7y agoThe US State of Massachusetts, for what it's worth, also uses police officers to control and supervise traffic around all worksites involving streets or roads. These police details are paid by the organization doing the work. Condo developers, public utilities, and municipal public works departments all pay the same rates. This stuff is expensive. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars US during the Big Dig. Our local radio humorists Tom and Ray Maggliozi might have said, lots of police "put their boats through college" in those days.
- mcny 7y ago> Big Dig just for some context: > The Central Artery/Tunnel Project (CA/T), commonly known as the Big Dig, was a megaproject in Boston that rerouted the Central Artery of Interstate 93 (I-93), the chief highway through the heart of the city, into the 1.5-mile (2.4 km) Thomas P. O'Neill Jr. Tunnel. The project also included the construction of the Ted Williams Tunnel (extending I-90 to Logan International Airport), the Leonard P. Zakim Bunker Hill Memorial Bridge over the Charles River, and the Rose Kennedy Greenway in the space vacated by the previous I-93 elevated roadway. Initially, the plan was also to include a rail connection between Boston's two major train terminals. Planning began in 1982; the construction work was carried out between 1991 and 2006; and the project concluded on December 31, 2007 when the partnership between the program manager and the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority ended. > The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the US, and was plagued by cost overruns, delays, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests,[2][3] and the death of one motorist.[4] The project was originally scheduled to be completed in 1998[5] at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).[6] However, the project was completed in December 2007 at a cost of over $8.08 billion (in 1982 dollars, $14.6 billion adjusted for inflation, meaning a cost overrun of about 190%)[6] as of 2006.[7] The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it would not be paid off until 2038.[8] As a result of a death, leaks, and other design flaws, Bechtel and Parsons Brinckerhoff—the consortium that oversaw the project—agreed to pay $407 million in restitution and several smaller companies agreed to pay a combined sum of approximately $51 million.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig
- marcpaq 7y ago> - corruption, especially in QC Quebec removed a blindfold with the Charbonneau Commission. A sincere question: have other provinces done the same recently? What did they discover? > - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. How much does that add to a project that costs 9-10 digits? > - lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. What's your definition of "major infra projects?" Canada is geographically enormous, with extreme climate and terrain, and clustered populations. Yet somehow they've built infrastructure for a modern, vibrant economy. Examples: 70 years of remote hydro-electric plants and a transmission network for half a dozen provinces and states.[1] 50 years of nuclear power plants in half a dozen countries.[2] A counter example for corruption (Canada is currently removing another blindfold), but about a century of bridges, tunnels, highways around the world.[3] > - lack of care by citizens. Most Canadians aren’t well travelled outside of Americas. Citation? > They don’t know what good cities look and feel like. Ouch. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Québec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Québec [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Energy_of_Canada_Limited https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Energy_of_Canada_Limite... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNC-Lavalin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNC-Lavalin Edit: typo & clarity
- BurningFrog 7y ago> How much does that add to a project that costs 9-10 digits? Pretty sure "every road work site" cost a few digits less.
- wyck 7y ago>Quebec removed a blindfold with the Charbonneau Commission. Sorry to digaree but he Charbonneau Commission did very little, corruption is still a huge problem in QC, it's part of the culture ..like Italy.
- frandroid 7y agoThey said it removed a blindfold, they didn't say it solved the problem.
- giarc 7y ago- lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Wait? We need to have 14th century church building experience to be considered experienced at building infrastructure?
- dcolkitt 7y agoYeah, this doesn't make sense to me either. 60 years ago South Korea was one of the poorest countries on Earth. Today it manages to build world-class infrastructure at very low cost. In contrast America was the first country in the world to build subways on a mass scale. Yet today it has by far the highest subway construction cost in the world. At least an order of magnitude higher than South Korea. I'm skeptical that aggregate experience on a national-level at decade-scale makes any major difference.
- wyck 7y agoFYI Canada has 3 engineering firms in the world top 10, SNC-Lavalin with 50k employees, WSP with 44k employees, and Stantec with 22k. Lack of experience and expertise is not the issue.
- frandroid 7y ago> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Nonsense. Canada is a major engineering power, building large projects the world over. One of the world's top 5 engineering firms, SNC-Lavalin, is located there.