4 ms·

Rated standard tournament chess involves a tedious process of annotating moves on a carbon copy as you play. One to give to the tournament director to enter th

by soup10 7y ago

Rated standard tournament chess involves a tedious process of annotating moves on a carbon copy as you play. One to give to the tournament director to enter the game into the database and one to review the game after. So there is a niche market for this.

slphil 7y ago
This makes no difference. Players are required to keep notation in tournament games, and the use of external software (like what is used at the top boards at some tournaments) does not absolve the players of this responsibility. Writing down the moves of the game as it is being played is a major part of playing chess, and it is one of the most important things for players to learn because it directly improves play (even disregarding reviewing the games afterwards!).
- rixed 7y ago
  In case this was not meant to be ironical, could you explain how noting moves improves play?
  - caro_douglos 7y ago
    It slows down your initial reaction to a move. 1) your opponent moves 2) opponent hits clock 3) they go to write down the move 4) you write down the move 5) you move 6) hit clock 7) write down your move 8) opponent writes down your move ... Imagine if this were done in poker! When it comes to studying for an upcoming tournament match you will know who your opponent is so you have the ability to study up on their previous play. Maybe they play a certain style against your mainline go-to that you can exploit. Edit: grammar/spacing
  - slphil 7y ago
    I am a chess professional, although more as a teacher than a player, so I have a lot of experience in this field. As caro_douglos pointed out, it slows down the initial reaction to opponent's moves, which is one reason why it instantly improves performance for new players. It forces the player to settle into a certain rhythm of play which prevents silly mistakes. It is also permitted (and encouraged) to write down the time on the clock after each move, and to record all draw offers, both of which are valuable information during and after the game. If one of my goals is to grind down my opponent's clock in a complex position where I have the initiative, seeing how much more time he is using on average gives me an idea of how long I need to maintain the tension to gain a sufficient time advantage. For example, in a game where both players start with two hours, entering the endgame with 1 hour versus my opponent's 15 minutes is an enormous advantage, even in a position which should otherwise be drawn with perfect play. Also, in some time controls, players gain extra time after a certain move (generally the 40th), so it can be very important to know exactly when you're going to get that extra hour. These time controls are less common than they used to be. I have students as young as 5 years old learn how to keep notation after only a few weeks of learning chess. It is a very important skill.
- gmiller123456 7y ago
  Players are required to keep notation in tournament games, and the use of external software ... does not absolve the players of this responsibility New technology can change the rules. I'm not sure about FIDE, I'm a former USCF TD. The USCF began allowing digital scoresheets many years ago. No doubt sponsorship from Monroi played a roll in the rule change, but it happened none the less. I can easily see the use of digital chessboards eventually eliminating the requirement to manually write moves down. There are also many instances where players are not required to notate (at least under USCF rules). Like when a player's time remaining drops below 5min in sudden death time controls. When a player can't read or write. Blind, or other handicapped players. And blitz games. At many of my tournaments it was pretty routine for parents to set up video cameras to record the games because the player's were too young to read or write.
swiley 7y ago
In algebraic notation? IMO that’s really not particularly tedious.
- slphil 7y ago
  It's only tedious for brand new players, who should get over it and do it anyway until it is natural.
  - soup10 7y ago
    i think your excessively opposed to this. a simple solution that records all the games has obvious benefits. market is probably too small anyway though, i don't see carbon copies going away any time soon.
    - slphil 7y ago
      To the contrary, many chess players are opposed to the increasing computerization of the game. Computers have already devastated opening theory (by finding solutions to difficult lines and forced draws in others) and made cheating 100x easier, requiring draconian monitoring at tournaments just to keep them fair. Even if a surveillance camera could track every game and create a scoresheet for every game in a tournament (which I strongly doubt is possible), this is the kind of thing I want out of the playing hall.
      - soup10 7y ago
        This isn't a computerization of the game, its a computerization of the recording of the game. Big difference and has nothing to do with computer chess engines. It could be used to detect cheating by comparing played moves to engine lines. Also a board camera isn't the the only way this could be implemented, rfid's in the pieces or a pressure sensitive board would both work. Players could still take their own game notes. It would also eliminate errors in the recording of the game and provide records for blitz and time pressure situations.
        7y ago
boomlinde 7y ago
Annotating each move manually seems a lot faster than the MVP app in the article, which seems to take some 10 seconds to recognize the whole game state. It also seems suited towards an altogether different use case, where you don't already know the previous game state or the moves that resulted in it. This recognizes the entire game state over and over again, which is a lot of redundant work if you already know the previous game state and only consider valid moves from that state. For the purpose of recording an entire game, a much simpler computer vision approach would be possible based on the previous state. Just find the empty square where there was previously a piece, consider where it might have ended up according to its possible moves and look for changes in those squares. The hardest CV issue then is figuring out what a pawn was promoted to.

by soup10 7y ago

slphil 7y ago

This makes no difference. Players are required to keep notation in tournament games, and the use of external software (like what is used at the top boards at some tournaments) does not absolve the players of this responsibility. Writing down the moves of the game as it is being played is a major part of playing chess, and it is one of the most important things for players to learn because it directly improves play (even disregarding reviewing the games afterwards!).

rixed 7y ago
In case this was not meant to be ironical, could you explain how noting moves improves play?
- caro_douglos 7y ago
  It slows down your initial reaction to a move. 1) your opponent moves 2) opponent hits clock 3) they go to write down the move 4) you write down the move 5) you move 6) hit clock 7) write down your move 8) opponent writes down your move ... Imagine if this were done in poker! When it comes to studying for an upcoming tournament match you will know who your opponent is so you have the ability to study up on their previous play. Maybe they play a certain style against your mainline go-to that you can exploit. Edit: grammar/spacing
- slphil 7y ago
  I am a chess professional, although more as a teacher than a player, so I have a lot of experience in this field. As caro_douglos pointed out, it slows down the initial reaction to opponent's moves, which is one reason why it instantly improves performance for new players. It forces the player to settle into a certain rhythm of play which prevents silly mistakes. It is also permitted (and encouraged) to write down the time on the clock after each move, and to record all draw offers, both of which are valuable information during and after the game. If one of my goals is to grind down my opponent's clock in a complex position where I have the initiative, seeing how much more time he is using on average gives me an idea of how long I need to maintain the tension to gain a sufficient time advantage. For example, in a game where both players start with two hours, entering the endgame with 1 hour versus my opponent's 15 minutes is an enormous advantage, even in a position which should otherwise be drawn with perfect play. Also, in some time controls, players gain extra time after a certain move (generally the 40th), so it can be very important to know exactly when you're going to get that extra hour. These time controls are less common than they used to be. I have students as young as 5 years old learn how to keep notation after only a few weeks of learning chess. It is a very important skill.
gmiller123456 7y ago
Players are required to keep notation in tournament games, and the use of external software ... does not absolve the players of this responsibility New technology can change the rules. I'm not sure about FIDE, I'm a former USCF TD. The USCF began allowing digital scoresheets many years ago. No doubt sponsorship from Monroi played a roll in the rule change, but it happened none the less. I can easily see the use of digital chessboards eventually eliminating the requirement to manually write moves down. There are also many instances where players are not required to notate (at least under USCF rules). Like when a player's time remaining drops below 5min in sudden death time controls. When a player can't read or write. Blind, or other handicapped players. And blitz games. At many of my tournaments it was pretty routine for parents to set up video cameras to record the games because the player's were too young to read or write.

swiley 7y ago

In algebraic notation? IMO that’s really not particularly tedious.

slphil 7y ago
It's only tedious for brand new players, who should get over it and do it anyway until it is natural.
- soup10 7y ago
  i think your excessively opposed to this. a simple solution that records all the games has obvious benefits. market is probably too small anyway though, i don't see carbon copies going away any time soon.
  - slphil 7y ago
    To the contrary, many chess players are opposed to the increasing computerization of the game. Computers have already devastated opening theory (by finding solutions to difficult lines and forced draws in others) and made cheating 100x easier, requiring draconian monitoring at tournaments just to keep them fair. Even if a surveillance camera could track every game and create a scoresheet for every game in a tournament (which I strongly doubt is possible), this is the kind of thing I want out of the playing hall.
    - soup10 7y ago
      This isn't a computerization of the game, its a computerization of the recording of the game. Big difference and has nothing to do with computer chess engines. It could be used to detect cheating by comparing played moves to engine lines. Also a board camera isn't the the only way this could be implemented, rfid's in the pieces or a pressure sensitive board would both work. Players could still take their own game notes. It would also eliminate errors in the recording of the game and provide records for blitz and time pressure situations.
      - 7y ago

boomlinde 7y ago

Annotating each move manually seems a lot faster than the MVP app in the article, which seems to take some 10 seconds to recognize the whole game state. It also seems suited towards an altogether different use case, where you don't already know the previous game state or the moves that resulted in it. This recognizes the entire game state over and over again, which is a lot of redundant work if you already know the previous game state and only consider valid moves from that state. For the purpose of recording an entire game, a much simpler computer vision approach would be possible based on the previous state. Just find the empty square where there was previously a piece, consider where it might have ended up according to its possible moves and look for changes in those squares. The hardest CV issue then is figuring out what a pawn was promoted to.