5 ms·

I don't buy it. Sure, I agree it can be a factor, but a key factor? Why I am skeptical: There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countr

by js8 7y ago

I don't buy it. Sure, I agree it can be a factor, but a key factor? Why I am skeptical: There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countryside or in the forest. Lights have been with us 60+ years, and the insect apocalypse has only been observed in past 20. There is also apocalypse of other species, such as earthworms, also caused by lights?

maelito 7y ago
> “We strongly believe artificial light at night – in combination with habitat loss, chemical pollution, invasive species, and climate change – is driving insect declines,” Well it would be a "key factor" among 5 of them at least, according to the authors.
herodotus 7y ago
Light pollution has been increasing significantly each year. Look at the photographs in this article: https://www.curbed.com/2017/4/26/15442432/photography-dark-sky-light-pollution-skyglow https://www.curbed.com/2017/4/26/15442432/photography-dark-s... There are fewer places than you think with no light. I remember watching many moth's flying around street lights and my porch light. Haven't seen that for years now.
- Zancarius 7y ago
  I'm not surprised. Rural areas are almost worse than you'd infer from the photographs in that article. 10 years ago, few people would have outside lighting on more than a few hours a night. Now, you can't even drive through most places without seeing high intensity lighting mounted to telephone poles near residential zones. I live about 10-15 miles from the nearest decent-sized town, and I've seen this change. Tons of people moving into these areas, and the first thing they do is install (or pay the electric coop to install) outdoor lighting. As per one of the other posters, it's almost always that obnoxious 6000K+ color lighting that's blue-white enough to hurt your eyes. And I used to whine about the sodium lamps... My state has light pollution laws under the Dark Skies Act. Good luck getting it enforced since most of the astronomers who lived here have either moved or died.
  - Reason077 7y ago
    This is the downside of LEDs. As great a technology as they are, their low cost and efficiency has enabled a huge expansion of outdoor lighting. Bright outdoor lights used to be expensive, and installing/running them unnecessarily would have a significant impact on power bills. Not any more. (That said, the "insect apocalypse" began long before LEDs were a thing...)
    - Zancarius 7y ago
      > their low cost and efficiency has enabled a huge expansion of outdoor lighting. This is exactly it. Leaving half a dozen LEDs on all night long is far cheaper than doing the same with traditional lighting. Then you have those stupid strings of warm white LEDs that I assume are intended to look like candles and are apparently all the rage right now. To say nothing of the couple of houses across the valley that have motion lights--at the end of their driveway--activated either by a brisk breeze or errant skunk. What worries me isn't so much whether light pollution is contributing to mass insect deaths (that seems debatable); it's that light pollution is getting so much worse that appreciating the night sky is going to become increasingly harder for more and more of the population.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  I'd expect moths to evolve to ignore streetlights. Maybe it happened already.
  - Razengan 7y ago
    On the other hand, we may devolve to lose our ability to see in the dark. Maybe it's happening already.
    - js8 7y ago
      Maybe it is happening, but at much slower pace than the evolution in insects, which have a new generation every couple weeks. GP has a good point, insect can evolve very quickly. And it is probably much easier evolutionary to adapt to light pollution (it's a software change, after all) than to insecticide (which affects cell chemistry) or complete change in habitat due to its destruction or climate change.
  - mistymountains 7y ago
    Your biological intuition is poor. I'll leave it at that.
    - kybernetikos 7y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
    - BurningFrog 7y ago
      You didn't give an argument. I'll leave it at that.
jostmey 7y ago
I’d be careful of mansueto and other companies promoting alternative causes of insect decline, even if these causes are insignificant, to make a few more bucks
mixmastamyk 7y ago
LEDs have increased light pollution by a significant factor.
- wnkrshm 7y ago
  Also changed the spectrum and luminance of general illumination. It used to be that gas discharge lamps had the highest luminous efficacy (lm/W) and they had relatively narrow composite Spectra. These days LEDs with broad spectrum phosphors are everywhere.
randomdata 7y ago
> There are many places where there is no light Less light might be more accurate. Even out in the middle of nowhere the horizon can be quite noticeably illuminated by far-off settlements. And the countryside itself can be just as bad for light pollution. It's kind of funny, I was just having a conversation about the local grain elevator's excessive use of lights. It is in the countryside, but appears as bright as a small city. Speaking of grain elevators, agricultural cropping is often blamed for insect decline. I see several comments stating that even within this discussion. Yet only 10% of the earth is arable. 90% of the earth is untouched in that way. I'm not entirely sure that "the insects can thrive somewhere else" is a tenable argument.
- tarsinge 7y ago
  > Yet only 10% of the earth is arable. 90% of the earth is untouched in that way. I don’t know the numbers but my guess that 90% is mostly unsuitable to insects in the first place. Also the problem is that in a lot of western countries the countryside that could host insects is mostly agricultural land. Try looking at the number of wild flowers you see in the country (spoiler: it’s depressing, because wild prairies are becoming very rare).
  - randomdata 7y ago
    To add to that, as cities benefit from close proximity to food and often came to be a city because they acted as ports for food distribution, cities tend to spring up on what was arable land, further destroying insect habitats and bringing that light pollution to the areas (possibly) best suited for insects. Although I'm not sure I entirely agree with your premise. As a Canadian, the lands on the Canadian Shield (a rock formation that spans across most of Canada's north) are famous for their dense insect population. The rock does not make agriculture viable there at all, but it is a great place to be an insect.
lucb1e 7y ago
> There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countryside or in the forest. The nearest place on land where darksitefinder[1] shows grey (not even black) is across the continent from me, >1000 kilometers in any direction. There are some blue (medium) spots in France and northern Germany (320km in opposing directions) but that's it. I've visited the one in mid-France once and had the fortune of having a clear sky. My lifetime falling star count went from zero to "I lost count at some point" in about an hour and a half. The milky way looks absolutely amazing from there. On the horizon, lights were still visible from a nearby town though. I don't think I've ever seen real darkness outside. Whenever I go on holiday, I'm actively looking for ways to get back to a blue spot, let alone a grey one. Maybe I should rent a seaworthy boat at some point and go overnight (not sure how much preparation that would take, I've only heard of sea dangers from fiction, no clue if an inexperienced person can just do that with a decent rental boat these days). Anyway, the point of the reply: I'm not sure that the darkness required for insect life is the same as "I can't see a bright, direct light source right now". [1] http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#6/48.487/9.646 http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#6/48.487/9.646
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  > Maybe I should rent a seaworthy boat at some point and go overnight (not sure how much preparation that would take, I've only heard of sea dangers from fiction, no clue if an inexperienced person can just do that with a decent rental boat these days). From my experience living in the Caribbeans, you shouldn't do that alone or inexperienced to begin with, I'd recommend hiring a skipper to take you and a few friends for a couple days, and mention you want to ride by night to see the stars. Prefer a moonless night, or close enough. I truly realized what the galaxy was, sailing at night. It's a sight that you never forget indeed. Whenever I think of times before the modern era, when everyone could see that at night... so many stars, such wonder just above... kinda makes you glimpse at a very different perspective. Maybe more 'magical', less about us people and animals and more about the cosmos in its entirety... I don't know. It's humbling and inspiring. These glorious first sights of our galaxy stayed with me to this day, some 25 years later.
- Razengan 7y ago
  > There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countryside or in the forest. > The nearest place on land where darksitefinder shows grey (not even black) is across the continent from me, >1000 kilometers in any direction. The only places in the universe where there really is no light may be the interiors of planets/asteroids.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Lights have been with us 60-100 years, but in the last 40 there have been some remarkable changes from day and night to day and simulated day. Only going back to 1980-1990: + Street lights used to be low power sodium, and 2 in 3 were turned off around midnight (in a major city). Villages might get 4 or 5 street lights only, near junctions, again often only on partial duty. There might be one or two running 24/7 by the village green, junction and bus stop. Being deep amber, and pretty dim, they kept your vision in night mode pretty effectively than the current crop of daylight lamps -- no idea if insects would get the same effect from lamp colour. + After 3 or 4 rounds of lighting upgrades my semi-rural residential street now has street lighting more suited to a major highway. I'm not joking. In 1980 on a taller pole, they'd have suited the M1. No lights are turned off any more, ever. The major highways used to only illuminate the congested bits and around complex junctions. Unlit sections have become more and more uncommon - they used to be the vast majority of motorway miles. + Many retailers, business parks, car parks, warehouse and whatnot have floodlighting permanently in the hours of darkness, whether in working hours or not. Most businesses have illuminated signs and gimmicks running 24/7. In 1980 a flat painted or printed sign, with a light or three for when the street lights turned on was most common. Turned off when the business closes for the day, maybe leave a dim bulb in the window or in premises for visual and security. + None of the 500w halogen PIR floodlights (and LED equivalents) common in many drives and garages try to limit spread, or upward light pollution. In 1980 you used the headlights to put the car in the garage, then turned on a 40 or 60w lamp if need be to open the house door. No one had two dozen gimmicky super-bright solar LEDs scattered around the lawn and drive. + Buildings wouldn't include lighting as part of the design, or use floodlighting unless a major national monument or of great historical significance. Now every ratty lawyer office, takeaway and hotel wants to light up their building through the night. New buildings come with LED colours as a bloody feature. If you want actual darkness (that few actually experience any more), or need of taking a torch walking the dog, or see stars properly, you need to get miles away from the nearest road and human.

by js8 7y ago

maelito 7y ago

> “We strongly believe artificial light at night – in combination with habitat loss, chemical pollution, invasive species, and climate change – is driving insect declines,” Well it would be a "key factor" among 5 of them at least, according to the authors.

herodotus 7y ago

Light pollution has been increasing significantly each year. Look at the photographs in this article: https://www.curbed.com/2017/4/26/15442432/photography-dark-sky-light-pollution-skyglow https://www.curbed.com/2017/4/26/15442432/photography-dark-s... There are fewer places than you think with no light. I remember watching many moth's flying around street lights and my porch light. Haven't seen that for years now.

Zancarius 7y ago
I'm not surprised. Rural areas are almost worse than you'd infer from the photographs in that article. 10 years ago, few people would have outside lighting on more than a few hours a night. Now, you can't even drive through most places without seeing high intensity lighting mounted to telephone poles near residential zones. I live about 10-15 miles from the nearest decent-sized town, and I've seen this change. Tons of people moving into these areas, and the first thing they do is install (or pay the electric coop to install) outdoor lighting. As per one of the other posters, it's almost always that obnoxious 6000K+ color lighting that's blue-white enough to hurt your eyes. And I used to whine about the sodium lamps... My state has light pollution laws under the Dark Skies Act. Good luck getting it enforced since most of the astronomers who lived here have either moved or died.
- Reason077 7y ago
  This is the downside of LEDs. As great a technology as they are, their low cost and efficiency has enabled a huge expansion of outdoor lighting. Bright outdoor lights used to be expensive, and installing/running them unnecessarily would have a significant impact on power bills. Not any more. (That said, the "insect apocalypse" began long before LEDs were a thing...)
  - Zancarius 7y ago
    > their low cost and efficiency has enabled a huge expansion of outdoor lighting. This is exactly it. Leaving half a dozen LEDs on all night long is far cheaper than doing the same with traditional lighting. Then you have those stupid strings of warm white LEDs that I assume are intended to look like candles and are apparently all the rage right now. To say nothing of the couple of houses across the valley that have motion lights--at the end of their driveway--activated either by a brisk breeze or errant skunk. What worries me isn't so much whether light pollution is contributing to mass insect deaths (that seems debatable); it's that light pollution is getting so much worse that appreciating the night sky is going to become increasingly harder for more and more of the population.
BurningFrog 7y ago
I'd expect moths to evolve to ignore streetlights. Maybe it happened already.
- Razengan 7y ago
  On the other hand, we may devolve to lose our ability to see in the dark. Maybe it's happening already.
  - js8 7y ago
    Maybe it is happening, but at much slower pace than the evolution in insects, which have a new generation every couple weeks. GP has a good point, insect can evolve very quickly. And it is probably much easier evolutionary to adapt to light pollution (it's a software change, after all) than to insecticide (which affects cell chemistry) or complete change in habitat due to its destruction or climate change.
- mistymountains 7y ago
  Your biological intuition is poor. I'll leave it at that.
  - kybernetikos 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    You didn't give an argument. I'll leave it at that.

jostmey 7y ago

I’d be careful of mansueto and other companies promoting alternative causes of insect decline, even if these causes are insignificant, to make a few more bucks

mixmastamyk 7y ago

LEDs have increased light pollution by a significant factor.

wnkrshm 7y ago
Also changed the spectrum and luminance of general illumination. It used to be that gas discharge lamps had the highest luminous efficacy (lm/W) and they had relatively narrow composite Spectra. These days LEDs with broad spectrum phosphors are everywhere.

randomdata 7y ago

> There are many places where there is no light Less light might be more accurate. Even out in the middle of nowhere the horizon can be quite noticeably illuminated by far-off settlements. And the countryside itself can be just as bad for light pollution. It's kind of funny, I was just having a conversation about the local grain elevator's excessive use of lights. It is in the countryside, but appears as bright as a small city. Speaking of grain elevators, agricultural cropping is often blamed for insect decline. I see several comments stating that even within this discussion. Yet only 10% of the earth is arable. 90% of the earth is untouched in that way. I'm not entirely sure that "the insects can thrive somewhere else" is a tenable argument.

tarsinge 7y ago
> Yet only 10% of the earth is arable. 90% of the earth is untouched in that way. I don’t know the numbers but my guess that 90% is mostly unsuitable to insects in the first place. Also the problem is that in a lot of western countries the countryside that could host insects is mostly agricultural land. Try looking at the number of wild flowers you see in the country (spoiler: it’s depressing, because wild prairies are becoming very rare).
- randomdata 7y ago
  To add to that, as cities benefit from close proximity to food and often came to be a city because they acted as ports for food distribution, cities tend to spring up on what was arable land, further destroying insect habitats and bringing that light pollution to the areas (possibly) best suited for insects. Although I'm not sure I entirely agree with your premise. As a Canadian, the lands on the Canadian Shield (a rock formation that spans across most of Canada's north) are famous for their dense insect population. The rock does not make agriculture viable there at all, but it is a great place to be an insect.

lucb1e 7y ago

> There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countryside or in the forest. The nearest place on land where darksitefinder[1] shows grey (not even black) is across the continent from me, >1000 kilometers in any direction. There are some blue (medium) spots in France and northern Germany (320km in opposing directions) but that's it. I've visited the one in mid-France once and had the fortune of having a clear sky. My lifetime falling star count went from zero to "I lost count at some point" in about an hour and a half. The milky way looks absolutely amazing from there. On the horizon, lights were still visible from a nearby town though. I don't think I've ever seen real darkness outside. Whenever I go on holiday, I'm actively looking for ways to get back to a blue spot, let alone a grey one. Maybe I should rent a seaworthy boat at some point and go overnight (not sure how much preparation that would take, I've only heard of sea dangers from fiction, no clue if an inexperienced person can just do that with a decent rental boat these days). Anyway, the point of the reply: I'm not sure that the darkness required for insect life is the same as "I can't see a bright, direct light source right now". [1] http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#6/48.487/9.646 http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#6/48.487/9.646

K0SM0S 7y ago
> Maybe I should rent a seaworthy boat at some point and go overnight (not sure how much preparation that would take, I've only heard of sea dangers from fiction, no clue if an inexperienced person can just do that with a decent rental boat these days). From my experience living in the Caribbeans, you shouldn't do that alone or inexperienced to begin with, I'd recommend hiring a skipper to take you and a few friends for a couple days, and mention you want to ride by night to see the stars. Prefer a moonless night, or close enough. I truly realized what the galaxy was, sailing at night. It's a sight that you never forget indeed. Whenever I think of times before the modern era, when everyone could see that at night... so many stars, such wonder just above... kinda makes you glimpse at a very different perspective. Maybe more 'magical', less about us people and animals and more about the cosmos in its entirety... I don't know. It's humbling and inspiring. These glorious first sights of our galaxy stayed with me to this day, some 25 years later.
Razengan 7y ago
> There are many places where there is no light, especially in the countryside or in the forest. > The nearest place on land where darksitefinder shows grey (not even black) is across the continent from me, >1000 kilometers in any direction. The only places in the universe where there really is no light may be the interiors of planets/asteroids.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

Lights have been with us 60-100 years, but in the last 40 there have been some remarkable changes from day and night to day and simulated day. Only going back to 1980-1990: + Street lights used to be low power sodium, and 2 in 3 were turned off around midnight (in a major city). Villages might get 4 or 5 street lights only, near junctions, again often only on partial duty. There might be one or two running 24/7 by the village green, junction and bus stop. Being deep amber, and pretty dim, they kept your vision in night mode pretty effectively than the current crop of daylight lamps -- no idea if insects would get the same effect from lamp colour. + After 3 or 4 rounds of lighting upgrades my semi-rural residential street now has street lighting more suited to a major highway. I'm not joking. In 1980 on a taller pole, they'd have suited the M1. No lights are turned off any more, ever. The major highways used to only illuminate the congested bits and around complex junctions. Unlit sections have become more and more uncommon - they used to be the vast majority of motorway miles. + Many retailers, business parks, car parks, warehouse and whatnot have floodlighting permanently in the hours of darkness, whether in working hours or not. Most businesses have illuminated signs and gimmicks running 24/7. In 1980 a flat painted or printed sign, with a light or three for when the street lights turned on was most common. Turned off when the business closes for the day, maybe leave a dim bulb in the window or in premises for visual and security. + None of the 500w halogen PIR floodlights (and LED equivalents) common in many drives and garages try to limit spread, or upward light pollution. In 1980 you used the headlights to put the car in the garage, then turned on a 40 or 60w lamp if need be to open the house door. No one had two dozen gimmicky super-bright solar LEDs scattered around the lawn and drive. + Buildings wouldn't include lighting as part of the design, or use floodlighting unless a major national monument or of great historical significance. Now every ratty lawyer office, takeaway and hotel wants to light up their building through the night. New buildings come with LED colours as a bloody feature. If you want actual darkness (that few actually experience any more), or need of taking a torch walking the dog, or see stars properly, you need to get miles away from the nearest road and human.