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>Outside of programming, this is the norm. The number of free and/or open-source tools available to a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer are infinite

>Outside of programming, this is the norm. The number of free and/or open-source tools available to a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer are infinitesimally small and it is almost impossible to do a serious engineering project with only free tools. >Since this is quite lucrative for the companies making those tools, I can only imagine tech companies would be more than happy to lead us to a future where software engineering is similar in this regard to other engineering disciplines. Perhaps this is what happens when a field matures, and since software is maturing, it will become more and more like this as the time goes on. That's a really great insight. (Sr EE here.) I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? For example: it'd be pretty hard for me as an EE to say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Orcad! I'll just go write my own fucking Orcad!" (OK, well, easy to say. Hard to do. I've spent plenty of days cursing Orcad, but none building a suitable replacement.)

smnrchrds 7y ago
> I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? I can only speculate, since I am not a software engineer, but I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. Thirty years ago, someone could say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Unix! I'll just go write my own fucking operating system!" and actually do it. Today, operating systems are so complex and large that this is not feasible anymore. Maybe you can write your own AWS replacement today, but would you able to write a replacement for AWS of 2050 in 2050? It it one of those things that I would be happy to be proven wrong about, but as of now, I am not super optimistic that the current state of freedom of software engineering tools would continue indefinitely.
- eloisant 7y ago
  I don't think it's about software getting more complex. It does become more complex, but you don't actually write more code or handle a more complex architecture, you just build it from more complex blocks. Those blocks are packaged so their own complexity is hidden from you. And you can write software on you spare time, and distribute it. Like it was done for Linux, gcc, git, and many other open source software. The other reason we have free software is because many software companies write their own tools and distribute them as Open Source because those are just tools, not what makes them money. AWS on the other hand, is not just software but it's infrastructure. It's servers that are running, maintained, etc. There are already Open Source alternatives to AWS, that you can install on your servers and maintain, but it's a very different experience from using the AWS tools on Amazon's servers.
- cushychicken 7y ago
  >I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. I agree. I think this is a great, succinct description of the underlying "why". It's a moat, to use PG's term for it. I could make a better Altium. It's just that Altium has a few decades head start on me. XD
secabeen 7y ago
> That's a really great insight. (Sr EE here.) I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? That's part of it. There's also the element that in many engineering fields, there is a floor on project pricing. Think Civil Engineering, Chemical Engineering, etc., most of those projects start at 6-figures, and often go into 7 or 8-figures. A per-engineer cost of $Xk/yr for tools is really not that much, in the scheme of things. I think you're seeing a similar increase with web designer tools. Adobe doesn't want you to think of a Creative Suite license as $500 or $1000, they want you to think of it as 1% of your employee's salary.
- bigkm 7y ago
  I think if you a machinist/mechanical eng you possess this trait, you have almost all the tools to make other machines that make new machines, but this is is kind of limited to this one discipline, whereas software we can almost build anything. In a previous profession I learnt this great lesson where we would occasionally build specific tools for specific jobs if we didn't have the correct machines to save sending parts out to be machined or even for doing backyard jobs.
ultrasounder 7y ago
Fellow Sr.EE currently pivoting in to SW. The core problem with our fields(EE/ME) is that our resp tools vendors are set in the old ways of building shipping and supporting the tolls that are fundamental to our jobs. No open APIs to customize the functionality, modify the GUI or extend it to Automate( wouldn’t you love to automate updates to the CIS database every time one of your colleague adds a new component to it?.I mean the basic infrastructure is there but just no motivation as they know that their core user base is not really growing and doesn’t mind putting up with this crap. Hence all valid open source efforts like KiCAD have been sparrow fart. No real dent. But SW industry is driven by innovation that’s happening in the FOSS domain. Even the mighty MSFT and APPL have to a certain extend embraced OSS. It’s not in the best interests of cadence and Solidworks to do that. Because the market size for their tools is minute compared to say Visualstudio code which is free and is highly customizable.

smnrchrds 7y ago

> I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? I can only speculate, since I am not a software engineer, but I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. Thirty years ago, someone could say "Fuck it! I'm fucking sick of Unix! I'll just go write my own fucking operating system!" and actually do it. Today, operating systems are so complex and large that this is not feasible anymore. Maybe you can write your own AWS replacement today, but would you able to write a replacement for AWS of 2050 in 2050? It it one of those things that I would be happy to be proven wrong about, but as of now, I am not super optimistic that the current state of freedom of software engineering tools would continue indefinitely.

eloisant 7y ago
I don't think it's about software getting more complex. It does become more complex, but you don't actually write more code or handle a more complex architecture, you just build it from more complex blocks. Those blocks are packaged so their own complexity is hidden from you. And you can write software on you spare time, and distribute it. Like it was done for Linux, gcc, git, and many other open source software. The other reason we have free software is because many software companies write their own tools and distribute them as Open Source because those are just tools, not what makes them money. AWS on the other hand, is not just software but it's infrastructure. It's servers that are running, maintained, etc. There are already Open Source alternatives to AWS, that you can install on your servers and maintain, but it's a very different experience from using the AWS tools on Amazon's servers.
cushychicken 7y ago
>I think part of maturing is things get more complex and making things more difficult and expensive. I agree. I think this is a great, succinct description of the underlying "why". It's a moat, to use PG's term for it. I could make a better Altium. It's just that Altium has a few decades head start on me. XD

secabeen 7y ago

> That's a really great insight. (Sr EE here.) I wonder sometimes about the fact that SW engineers are capable of making their own tools in a way that we are not. Do you think this helps to combat some of the super high pricing associated with their tooling? That's part of it. There's also the element that in many engineering fields, there is a floor on project pricing. Think Civil Engineering, Chemical Engineering, etc., most of those projects start at 6-figures, and often go into 7 or 8-figures. A per-engineer cost of $Xk/yr for tools is really not that much, in the scheme of things. I think you're seeing a similar increase with web designer tools. Adobe doesn't want you to think of a Creative Suite license as $500 or $1000, they want you to think of it as 1% of your employee's salary.

bigkm 7y ago
I think if you a machinist/mechanical eng you possess this trait, you have almost all the tools to make other machines that make new machines, but this is is kind of limited to this one discipline, whereas software we can almost build anything. In a previous profession I learnt this great lesson where we would occasionally build specific tools for specific jobs if we didn't have the correct machines to save sending parts out to be machined or even for doing backyard jobs.

ultrasounder 7y ago

Fellow Sr.EE currently pivoting in to SW. The core problem with our fields(EE/ME) is that our resp tools vendors are set in the old ways of building shipping and supporting the tolls that are fundamental to our jobs. No open APIs to customize the functionality, modify the GUI or extend it to Automate( wouldn’t you love to automate updates to the CIS database every time one of your colleague adds a new component to it?.I mean the basic infrastructure is there but just no motivation as they know that their core user base is not really growing and doesn’t mind putting up with this crap. Hence all valid open source efforts like KiCAD have been sparrow fart. No real dent. But SW industry is driven by innovation that’s happening in the FOSS domain. Even the mighty MSFT and APPL have to a certain extend embraced OSS. It’s not in the best interests of cadence and Solidworks to do that. Because the market size for their tools is minute compared to say Visualstudio code which is free and is highly customizable.