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I don't know about Ireland, but in most placed in Europe you can not film people without their knowledge unless it's a public place.

by dtech 7y ago

DanBC 7y ago
But is that in criminal or civil law? EDIT: If someone wants to link some laws that's be useful. For the downvoters: I am clearly NOT saying it's okay to hide cameras in an AirBnB. But it's probably not a criminal offence. The police have no power here. I'm NOT saying it's lawful -- the AirBnB owners are probably violating Irish data protection laws. But again those are not enforced by the police. In the UK it's not a criminal offence unless it meets the definition in the sexual offences act 2003, and putting cameras in the living room but not the bedroom probably gives the owners enough deniability to avoid prosecution. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/67 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/67
- Sharlin 7y ago
  Criminal, obviously.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    No, absolutely not "obviously". It's not a criminal offence in the UK to film people without their knowledge. It breaks data protection law (civil); there are regulations (RIPA) for public authorities but these do not apply to members of the public ; and there is criminal law that covers covert recording if done for sexual gratification, but those may not apply if the cameras have not been placed in toilets or bedrooms. Can you link any of these laws please? Especially for Ireland. I can't find anything for Ireland that would make this a criminal offence. Again, I'm not defending it. I think it's an awful thing to do. But "why didn't they call the police?" is answered by "maybe they did and the police told them it's not a police matter".
    - pfg 7y ago
      Germany has a section called "Violation of intimate privacy by taking photographs" that seems to apply here[1]. [1]: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1741 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
    - Sharlin 7y ago
      Okay, not obviously and I should have elaborated. In my country, Finland, watching or recording people without consent, in situations where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, is a crime punishable by a fine or up to a one-year prison sentence. This includes homes, hotel rooms, changing or fitting rooms, toilets, and similar locations, but also ”upskirt” style photography in public places.
  - ascar 7y ago
    Unethical, immoral, obviously. Criminal? Not at all. Starting with different laws in different jurisdictions, over the difference of criminal acts and civil offenses to the point where an AirBnB is your private home and not a hotel ("obviously" you're allowed to film your own home right?). If it's criminal or not is not a matter of simple opinion, but of the laws in that jurisdiction. DanBC doesn't deserve the downvotes.
- arrrg 7y ago
  I’m not sure why you are seemingly so certain that it’s not a crime. You are talking about the UK but Ireland is not the UK and you yourself are not bringing up anything relating to Ireland that would convince one that no crime was committed. In Germany, for example, filming private spaces (ownership doesn’t really matter) is very clearly a crime: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1741 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st... So yeah, now we know the laws in two European countries that are not Ireland and they are different. How does that help us with Ireland? Not at all. Either way, I think calling the police in such cases is exactly the right thing to do. If in doubt they can tell you whether it’s likely there was a crime committed and they can also likely help you at least figure out what remedies you have. Because I think we can very clearly agree that no matter whether this is a crime in your jurisdiction or not, nobody would think it absurd if this were a crime.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I am not certain that it isn't a crime, which is why I asked "what law is being broken?". It's not an unreasonable question. People have made some assumptions that this reprehensible behaviour is obviously illegal, based on their knowledge of laws in their country. But it might not be illegal in Ireland. Clarity about law is important. It allows people to campaign for changes to the law. Here's an old article about Ireland where someone planted hidden cameras in toilet cubicles for the purposes of sexual gratification. He was not successfully prosecuted under the Irish law. I don't know if there's been any newer law implemented to cover this. https://www.thejournal.ie/hidden-cameras-legal-loophole-1696346-Sep2014/ https://www.thejournal.ie/hidden-cameras-legal-loophole-1696... > Either way, I think calling the police in such cases is exactly the right thing to do We don't know that they didn't call the police.
Const-me 7y ago
In some places in Europe, like here, you can film in public places but robots can't. Security cameras must come with warning signs, and their complete FOV must be private property. Similarly, car video recorders are banned, for the same reason, privacy.

I don't know about Ireland, but in most placed in Europe you can not film people without their knowledge unless it's a public place.

by dtech 7y ago

I don't know about Ireland, but in most placed in Europe you can not film people without their knowledge unless it's a public place.

DanBC 7y ago

But is that in criminal or civil law? EDIT: If someone wants to link some laws that's be useful. For the downvoters: I am clearly NOT saying it's okay to hide cameras in an AirBnB. But it's probably not a criminal offence. The police have no power here. I'm NOT saying it's lawful -- the AirBnB owners are probably violating Irish data protection laws. But again those are not enforced by the police. In the UK it's not a criminal offence unless it meets the definition in the sexual offences act 2003, and putting cameras in the living room but not the bedroom probably gives the owners enough deniability to avoid prosecution. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/67 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/67

Sharlin 7y ago
Criminal, obviously.
- DanBC 7y ago
  No, absolutely not "obviously". It's not a criminal offence in the UK to film people without their knowledge. It breaks data protection law (civil); there are regulations (RIPA) for public authorities but these do not apply to members of the public ; and there is criminal law that covers covert recording if done for sexual gratification, but those may not apply if the cameras have not been placed in toilets or bedrooms. Can you link any of these laws please? Especially for Ireland. I can't find anything for Ireland that would make this a criminal offence. Again, I'm not defending it. I think it's an awful thing to do. But "why didn't they call the police?" is answered by "maybe they did and the police told them it's not a police matter".
  - pfg 7y ago
    Germany has a section called "Violation of intimate privacy by taking photographs" that seems to apply here[1]. [1]: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1741 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    Okay, not obviously and I should have elaborated. In my country, Finland, watching or recording people without consent, in situations where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, is a crime punishable by a fine or up to a one-year prison sentence. This includes homes, hotel rooms, changing or fitting rooms, toilets, and similar locations, but also ”upskirt” style photography in public places.
- ascar 7y ago
  Unethical, immoral, obviously. Criminal? Not at all. Starting with different laws in different jurisdictions, over the difference of criminal acts and civil offenses to the point where an AirBnB is your private home and not a hotel ("obviously" you're allowed to film your own home right?). If it's criminal or not is not a matter of simple opinion, but of the laws in that jurisdiction. DanBC doesn't deserve the downvotes.
arrrg 7y ago
I’m not sure why you are seemingly so certain that it’s not a crime. You are talking about the UK but Ireland is not the UK and you yourself are not bringing up anything relating to Ireland that would convince one that no crime was committed. In Germany, for example, filming private spaces (ownership doesn’t really matter) is very clearly a crime: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1741 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st... So yeah, now we know the laws in two European countries that are not Ireland and they are different. How does that help us with Ireland? Not at all. Either way, I think calling the police in such cases is exactly the right thing to do. If in doubt they can tell you whether it’s likely there was a crime committed and they can also likely help you at least figure out what remedies you have. Because I think we can very clearly agree that no matter whether this is a crime in your jurisdiction or not, nobody would think it absurd if this were a crime.
- DanBC 7y ago
  I am not certain that it isn't a crime, which is why I asked "what law is being broken?". It's not an unreasonable question. People have made some assumptions that this reprehensible behaviour is obviously illegal, based on their knowledge of laws in their country. But it might not be illegal in Ireland. Clarity about law is important. It allows people to campaign for changes to the law. Here's an old article about Ireland where someone planted hidden cameras in toilet cubicles for the purposes of sexual gratification. He was not successfully prosecuted under the Irish law. I don't know if there's been any newer law implemented to cover this. https://www.thejournal.ie/hidden-cameras-legal-loophole-1696346-Sep2014/ https://www.thejournal.ie/hidden-cameras-legal-loophole-1696... > Either way, I think calling the police in such cases is exactly the right thing to do We don't know that they didn't call the police.

Const-me 7y ago

In some places in Europe, like here, you can film in public places but robots can't. Security cameras must come with warning signs, and their complete FOV must be private property. Similarly, car video recorders are banned, for the same reason, privacy.