4 ms·

Naw, with the coming of 5G it will destroy their monopolies on the communication lines which should open the door to more local competition.

bransonf 7y ago
But what makes wireless telecom giants any better than ISPs?
- doctorshady 7y ago
  I think their point is more competition is better regardless; every one of them will try to find some way to make themselves seem better than the other. Though the problem with that regardless is that from a business perspective, there's a very finite amount of spectrum, and it's being gobbled up exclusively by four (maybe soon to be three with the pending Sprint merger) companies. From a technical perspective, there's definitely been mixed reactions to the effectiveness of 5G technology. That's another topic in and of itself, though.
m10i 7y ago
Could you elaborate on this?
randomsearch 7y ago
5G isn’t a substitute for fibre.
Teknoman117 7y ago
That assumes that you'll have a healthy offering of wireless providers. If you're from Europe, then I understand that's the norm there, but in the US, it's the same story as your local ISPs. For home internet, you'll be beholden to whatever companies own the towers near your property.
superkuh 7y ago
No. The modulation and time sharing built into 5G only offers 15-20% increase in bandwidth available, MHz for MHz, when compared to 4G LTE. This is not a significant increase. It is not at all like the 3-4x increases in bandwidth, MHz for MHz, that the jump from 3G modulations to 4G LTE did. Almost all of any potential increase in total speed will have to come from using new parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. To that end the FCC is kicking out old users from the 3 GHz range and auctioning it off to the mobile telcos. This includes both the traditional backend media distribution role and completely eliminating the amateur radio alloacations (ref: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360941A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360941A1.pdf). But even with stealing bandwidth from you, me, and the normal media companies it won't replace an ISP with wire. Why? Every single wire or fiber has as much bandwidth to itself as the entire electromagnetic spectrum useable in freespace. And you don't have to share. Wireless, no matter the modulation, can never replace wired ISPs simply because there's not enough spectrum for everyone to use it at once. Additionally, the 3-4 GHz spectrum really doesn't have that good of propagation characteristics. And mm-wave, well, that's about as effective as a light post light in terms of coverage area. No, 5G will not destroy any monopolies. That's silly.
- namibj 7y ago
  Smaller cells do wonders. A LimeSDR with <200$ of general-purpose CPU/assorted components to work between the USB3 SDR and Gigabit Ethernet (and some <50$ antenna + GPS-clock) is enough for a small 5G cell, where small primarily refers to single-channel and limited reach due to ~4mW output power (on each of the 2 antennas). The reach can be increased for <50$ to at least a few hundred meters radius.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    I don't understand, are you advocating for hobbyists to make their own 5G cells, or carriers? Why not use Wi-Fi at this point?
    - mch82 7y ago
      I assume Namibj is suggesting a switch from our current hub-and-spoke ISP model to a peer-to-peer mesh networking model. Radio technologies have strengths and weaknesses. While WiFi works great in a home, other radio types are better at transmitting data long distance. The best solutions combine a mix of radios to leverage their strengths.
      - superkuh 7y ago
        Unfortuantely it's not the radio technologies that allow the cell network to work. It's the cell network paying the big bucks for height above terrain on various towers, buildings, and the like. This is the problem mesh networks have to solve: height. Everything else is cheap and easy. But without height above terrain and line of sight it simply won't work.
      - namibj 7y ago
        Not really. I mean that cells are cheap, so the increased density offers higher speeds (less sharing) and possibly new organizational structures due to a lower entry barrier.
    - namibj 7y ago
Spooky23 7y ago
Lol. Over the air carriers have much broader latitude to block and prioritize traffic than the wired ISPs do. They also have an absurd national security justification to build out 5G local infrastructure without any input or regulation from local authorities.

bransonf 7y ago

But what makes wireless telecom giants any better than ISPs?

doctorshady 7y ago
I think their point is more competition is better regardless; every one of them will try to find some way to make themselves seem better than the other. Though the problem with that regardless is that from a business perspective, there's a very finite amount of spectrum, and it's being gobbled up exclusively by four (maybe soon to be three with the pending Sprint merger) companies. From a technical perspective, there's definitely been mixed reactions to the effectiveness of 5G technology. That's another topic in and of itself, though.

m10i 7y ago

Could you elaborate on this?

randomsearch 7y ago

5G isn’t a substitute for fibre.

Teknoman117 7y ago

That assumes that you'll have a healthy offering of wireless providers. If you're from Europe, then I understand that's the norm there, but in the US, it's the same story as your local ISPs. For home internet, you'll be beholden to whatever companies own the towers near your property.

superkuh 7y ago

No. The modulation and time sharing built into 5G only offers 15-20% increase in bandwidth available, MHz for MHz, when compared to 4G LTE. This is not a significant increase. It is not at all like the 3-4x increases in bandwidth, MHz for MHz, that the jump from 3G modulations to 4G LTE did. Almost all of any potential increase in total speed will have to come from using new parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. To that end the FCC is kicking out old users from the 3 GHz range and auctioning it off to the mobile telcos. This includes both the traditional backend media distribution role and completely eliminating the amateur radio alloacations (ref: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360941A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360941A1.pdf). But even with stealing bandwidth from you, me, and the normal media companies it won't replace an ISP with wire. Why? Every single wire or fiber has as much bandwidth to itself as the entire electromagnetic spectrum useable in freespace. And you don't have to share. Wireless, no matter the modulation, can never replace wired ISPs simply because there's not enough spectrum for everyone to use it at once. Additionally, the 3-4 GHz spectrum really doesn't have that good of propagation characteristics. And mm-wave, well, that's about as effective as a light post light in terms of coverage area. No, 5G will not destroy any monopolies. That's silly.

namibj 7y ago
Smaller cells do wonders. A LimeSDR with <200$ of general-purpose CPU/assorted components to work between the USB3 SDR and Gigabit Ethernet (and some <50$ antenna + GPS-clock) is enough for a small 5G cell, where small primarily refers to single-channel and limited reach due to ~4mW output power (on each of the 2 antennas). The reach can be increased for <50$ to at least a few hundred meters radius.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  I don't understand, are you advocating for hobbyists to make their own 5G cells, or carriers? Why not use Wi-Fi at this point?
  - mch82 7y ago
    I assume Namibj is suggesting a switch from our current hub-and-spoke ISP model to a peer-to-peer mesh networking model. Radio technologies have strengths and weaknesses. While WiFi works great in a home, other radio types are better at transmitting data long distance. The best solutions combine a mix of radios to leverage their strengths.
    - superkuh 7y ago
      Unfortuantely it's not the radio technologies that allow the cell network to work. It's the cell network paying the big bucks for height above terrain on various towers, buildings, and the like. This is the problem mesh networks have to solve: height. Everything else is cheap and easy. But without height above terrain and line of sight it simply won't work.
    - namibj 7y ago
      Not really. I mean that cells are cheap, so the increased density offers higher speeds (less sharing) and possibly new organizational structures due to a lower entry barrier.
  - namibj 7y ago

Spooky23 7y ago

Lol. Over the air carriers have much broader latitude to block and prioritize traffic than the wired ISPs do. They also have an absurd national security justification to build out 5G local infrastructure without any input or regulation from local authorities.