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Funny. Article discussing hard problems of crypto and ignoring the elephants in the room. There is still no actual and relevant use case for crypto outside ille

Funny. Article discussing hard problems of crypto and ignoring the elephants in the room. There is still no actual and relevant use case for crypto outside illegal transactions and gambli^H^H^H^H^Hinvestment purposes. The second elephant is that it brings monetary policy back to medieval times. Third is that in practice the whole concept of credit and ots role in money creation is ignored.

oraphalous 7y ago
I'll just leave this here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/fed-adds-104-5-billion-to-financial-markets-11572355429 https://www.wsj.com/articles/fed-adds-104-5-billion-to-finan...
- platz 7y ago
  How long ago did we almost have a hard fork? How long ago were the exchanges found to be manipulating prices fraudulently? As if crypto is immune to systemic issues. It's not a closed system after all, is it?
newguy1234 7y ago
One legitimate use case for cryptocurrency is so you can transact with individuals who do not have bank accounts. Cryptocurrency allows anyone in the world to get a cryptocurrency "bank account" and that "bank account" allows the individual to transact freely in society. It is important for a free society.
- unityByFreedom 7y ago
  Cash? Otherwise, for digital, who are we talking about, exactly? What country doesn't have banks? If you can't get a bank account it's unlikely your basic needs are going to be met by a stranger you've never met.
  - lawn 7y ago
    There are 1.7 billion adults in the world who are unbanked. 420 million of them have internet access. You can find them in countries all over the world. For example USA have 18 million and France have 3 million who don't have a bank account. It's not just poor people in countries without banks who have these problems. Even rich porn stars have had their bank accounts closed (for being porn stars) and people in the marijuana business too. Some more info here: https://whycryptocurrencies.com/for_the_unbanked.html https://whycryptocurrencies.com/for_the_unbanked.html
    - bitcoinbutter 7y ago
      Yes, one big issue is that payment processors are incredibly centralized and massive. These two combined means that they are incentivized to de-risk their platforms and stop serving customers they determine to be "high risk". "High risk" is often mistaken for illegal, but that's incorrect. Many industries that are completely legal are still viewed as high risk and become deplatformed. Small companies are at the highest risk of being deplatformed. Crypto currency allows anyone to send and receive money, without depending on the blessing of a third party which can decide whether or not to serve your business. Access to the financial system is not seen as a basic human right.
    - green1 7y ago
      From that page: > There is no KYC process. How does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without a KYC process? (Please don't say trust a random third party stranger in a pub offering cryptocurrency at an exorbitant markup.) > There are no fees for opening or having an account I've never paid a fee to open or have a bank account, but how does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without paying a fee (or an exorbitant markup)? > You don’t need to trust a third party with your money. How does an unbanked get their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without trusting a third party? > There’s no need to visit a financial institution. As long as you have internet access you always have access to your money and can make payments. Online and phone banking existed decades before Bitcoin was created. > Around 60% said they had too little money to use a bank account Yet they'd somehow have enough to put into cryptocurrency account?
mrb 7y ago
«There is still no actual and relevant use case for crypto» What a short-sighted view. Perhaps no use case for you personally. There are 7.7 billion people in this world who have vastly different life circumstances, some of them certainly need crypto to make their lives better. In no particular order: hyperflation, financial censorship, instant low-fee international transfers, etc
- algerd 7y ago
  >> Hyperinflation Human competence the main cause. >> Instant low-fee international transfers We have it already >>financial censorship Depends firstly on political system. If you have undemocratic government crypto won't help you anyway, because it will be banned or controlled. Practice is the criterion of truth. Can provide cases, when crypto solves problem better than existing instruments?
  - solveit 7y ago
    I have to say crypto seems much easier to solve than bad politics. If you'll grant this, your argument hinges on crypto being useless under an oppressive government, because it will be controlled. I find this implausible given that no government in history has ever really succeeded in fully controlling black markets. Indeed, the trend is that the more dysfunctional the government, the more power the black markets have.
lawn 7y ago
What's actually funny is how people still believe that no use cases exist. Here are just some examples: * Uncensorable donations * No way for a third party to freeze your payments (internet is full of horror stories of PayPal) * Not all businesses can accept digital payments (marijuana stores or porn have trouble) * Credit cards and payment processors take a 2-4% cut, of all transactions. * You can use cryptocurrencies anonymously (to for example buy VPNs) * It's possible to flee your country with some of your wealth intact (for example by converting to Bitcoin and crossing the Venezuela border)
- cyphar 7y ago
  Excluding the transaction fees problem you mentioned (which cryptocurrencies also have -- while it might not be 4% it's definitely not 0%), all of the uses you listed are really just one use-case -- uncensorable transactions. Don't get me wrong, that's a very good feature of cryptocurrencies (assuming that you have the ability to transform crypto back to real money on the other end), but you should be aware that your list of use-cases is only one element long. I also want to point out that the use-case of "get your money out of the country" is not exactly perfect for Bitcoin because of how volatile it is (imagine if someone had to get their money out during December 2017).
  - lawn 7y ago
    Good point. I'd say anonymous payments is a little different from being uncensorable though. You'll stay anonymous even after the payment has gone through. As for transaction fees, if we exclude Bitcoin which has really high fees, cryptocurrency fees are very small and almost negligible.[0] Getting money out of the country is always relative. Even with Bitcoin's volatility it's much preferred to losing all your money. Either you cannot bring it with you through the border, or Venezuela's hyperinflation will eat it up in a flash. [0]: https://whycryptocurrencies.com/cheaper_faster.html https://whycryptocurrencies.com/cheaper_faster.html
    - mamon 7y ago
      >> As for transaction fees, if we exclude Bitcoin which has really high fees, cryptocurrency fees are very small and almost negligible.[0] That's probably because their popularity among users is also negligible. Problem with cryptocurrencess is that they don't scale well, with increased transaction volumes the fees and processing times also tend to rise until network's hashing power catches up.
Findeton 7y ago
So you're envious that the crooks are not using the dollar anymore?
Gatsky 7y ago
Sure, those are all good points, but cryptocurrency has one special, virtually unique characteristic in the current era - newness. We should cut it a bit of slack.
int_19h 7y ago
Illegal transactions sound like a perfectly good use case to me, considering the laws that so many people have to contend with.
koheripbal 7y ago
As long as coins are designed as a store of value rather than an actual currency, they will have limited use-cases. People need to get over the concept of inflation. Inflation is GOOD.
- seibelj 7y ago
  Inflation is good for governments who want to reduce their debt obligations denominated in their own currency, and it encourages economic activity. It’s bad if you have little money, your wages don’t raise automatically with inflation, and every year what little you have has been reduced in value 1 to 10%. I as a homeowner with a government-subsidized 30 year fixed rate mortgage love it however, as what I pay for my asset each month is less and less as inflation helps me and the tax payers finance my wealth creation. Renters, not so much!
  - Nursie 7y ago
    It's irrelevant if you have little money. "The poor" don't give a fuck about inflation.
- whb07 7y ago
  Can you describe to me how inflation is good for a household? The literature you've probably seen is ex post facto about inflation trying to convince themselves and the world that the inflationary behaviors that were done are "good". "So every year, your savings get watered down and you lose wealth", is not what one wants to hear.
  - koheripbal 7y ago
    Inflation is good for an ECONOMY because it ensures that currency is not sitting on the side lines, but being actively invested wherever possible. ...so the velocity of money is increased, and hence volatility is decreased. The negative impacts of volatility on the economy are very well documented. Inflation has zero impact on a household as long as their savings are kept in assets other than cash.

oraphalous 7y ago

I'll just leave this here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/fed-adds-104-5-billion-to-financial-markets-11572355429 https://www.wsj.com/articles/fed-adds-104-5-billion-to-finan...

platz 7y ago
How long ago did we almost have a hard fork? How long ago were the exchanges found to be manipulating prices fraudulently? As if crypto is immune to systemic issues. It's not a closed system after all, is it?

newguy1234 7y ago

One legitimate use case for cryptocurrency is so you can transact with individuals who do not have bank accounts. Cryptocurrency allows anyone in the world to get a cryptocurrency "bank account" and that "bank account" allows the individual to transact freely in society. It is important for a free society.

unityByFreedom 7y ago
Cash? Otherwise, for digital, who are we talking about, exactly? What country doesn't have banks? If you can't get a bank account it's unlikely your basic needs are going to be met by a stranger you've never met.
- lawn 7y ago
  There are 1.7 billion adults in the world who are unbanked. 420 million of them have internet access. You can find them in countries all over the world. For example USA have 18 million and France have 3 million who don't have a bank account. It's not just poor people in countries without banks who have these problems. Even rich porn stars have had their bank accounts closed (for being porn stars) and people in the marijuana business too. Some more info here: https://whycryptocurrencies.com/for_the_unbanked.html https://whycryptocurrencies.com/for_the_unbanked.html
  - bitcoinbutter 7y ago
    Yes, one big issue is that payment processors are incredibly centralized and massive. These two combined means that they are incentivized to de-risk their platforms and stop serving customers they determine to be "high risk". "High risk" is often mistaken for illegal, but that's incorrect. Many industries that are completely legal are still viewed as high risk and become deplatformed. Small companies are at the highest risk of being deplatformed. Crypto currency allows anyone to send and receive money, without depending on the blessing of a third party which can decide whether or not to serve your business. Access to the financial system is not seen as a basic human right.
  - green1 7y ago
    From that page: > There is no KYC process. How does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without a KYC process? (Please don't say trust a random third party stranger in a pub offering cryptocurrency at an exorbitant markup.) > There are no fees for opening or having an account I've never paid a fee to open or have a bank account, but how does an unbanked put their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without paying a fee (or an exorbitant markup)? > You don’t need to trust a third party with your money. How does an unbanked get their paper money into their cryptocurrency account without trusting a third party? > There’s no need to visit a financial institution. As long as you have internet access you always have access to your money and can make payments. Online and phone banking existed decades before Bitcoin was created. > Around 60% said they had too little money to use a bank account Yet they'd somehow have enough to put into cryptocurrency account?

mrb 7y ago

«There is still no actual and relevant use case for crypto» What a short-sighted view. Perhaps no use case for you personally. There are 7.7 billion people in this world who have vastly different life circumstances, some of them certainly need crypto to make their lives better. In no particular order: hyperflation, financial censorship, instant low-fee international transfers, etc

algerd 7y ago
>> Hyperinflation Human competence the main cause. >> Instant low-fee international transfers We have it already >>financial censorship Depends firstly on political system. If you have undemocratic government crypto won't help you anyway, because it will be banned or controlled. Practice is the criterion of truth. Can provide cases, when crypto solves problem better than existing instruments?
- solveit 7y ago
  I have to say crypto seems much easier to solve than bad politics. If you'll grant this, your argument hinges on crypto being useless under an oppressive government, because it will be controlled. I find this implausible given that no government in history has ever really succeeded in fully controlling black markets. Indeed, the trend is that the more dysfunctional the government, the more power the black markets have.

lawn 7y ago

What's actually funny is how people still believe that no use cases exist. Here are just some examples: * Uncensorable donations * No way for a third party to freeze your payments (internet is full of horror stories of PayPal) * Not all businesses can accept digital payments (marijuana stores or porn have trouble) * Credit cards and payment processors take a 2-4% cut, of all transactions. * You can use cryptocurrencies anonymously (to for example buy VPNs) * It's possible to flee your country with some of your wealth intact (for example by converting to Bitcoin and crossing the Venezuela border)

cyphar 7y ago
Excluding the transaction fees problem you mentioned (which cryptocurrencies also have -- while it might not be 4% it's definitely not 0%), all of the uses you listed are really just one use-case -- uncensorable transactions. Don't get me wrong, that's a very good feature of cryptocurrencies (assuming that you have the ability to transform crypto back to real money on the other end), but you should be aware that your list of use-cases is only one element long. I also want to point out that the use-case of "get your money out of the country" is not exactly perfect for Bitcoin because of how volatile it is (imagine if someone had to get their money out during December 2017).
- lawn 7y ago
  Good point. I'd say anonymous payments is a little different from being uncensorable though. You'll stay anonymous even after the payment has gone through. As for transaction fees, if we exclude Bitcoin which has really high fees, cryptocurrency fees are very small and almost negligible.[0] Getting money out of the country is always relative. Even with Bitcoin's volatility it's much preferred to losing all your money. Either you cannot bring it with you through the border, or Venezuela's hyperinflation will eat it up in a flash. [0]: https://whycryptocurrencies.com/cheaper_faster.html https://whycryptocurrencies.com/cheaper_faster.html
  - mamon 7y ago
    >> As for transaction fees, if we exclude Bitcoin which has really high fees, cryptocurrency fees are very small and almost negligible.[0] That's probably because their popularity among users is also negligible. Problem with cryptocurrencess is that they don't scale well, with increased transaction volumes the fees and processing times also tend to rise until network's hashing power catches up.

Findeton 7y ago

So you're envious that the crooks are not using the dollar anymore?

Gatsky 7y ago

Sure, those are all good points, but cryptocurrency has one special, virtually unique characteristic in the current era - newness. We should cut it a bit of slack.

int_19h 7y ago

Illegal transactions sound like a perfectly good use case to me, considering the laws that so many people have to contend with.

koheripbal 7y ago

As long as coins are designed as a store of value rather than an actual currency, they will have limited use-cases. People need to get over the concept of inflation. Inflation is GOOD.

seibelj 7y ago
Inflation is good for governments who want to reduce their debt obligations denominated in their own currency, and it encourages economic activity. It’s bad if you have little money, your wages don’t raise automatically with inflation, and every year what little you have has been reduced in value 1 to 10%. I as a homeowner with a government-subsidized 30 year fixed rate mortgage love it however, as what I pay for my asset each month is less and less as inflation helps me and the tax payers finance my wealth creation. Renters, not so much!
- Nursie 7y ago
  It's irrelevant if you have little money. "The poor" don't give a fuck about inflation.
whb07 7y ago
Can you describe to me how inflation is good for a household? The literature you've probably seen is ex post facto about inflation trying to convince themselves and the world that the inflationary behaviors that were done are "good". "So every year, your savings get watered down and you lose wealth", is not what one wants to hear.
- koheripbal 7y ago
  Inflation is good for an ECONOMY because it ensures that currency is not sitting on the side lines, but being actively invested wherever possible. ...so the velocity of money is increased, and hence volatility is decreased. The negative impacts of volatility on the economy are very well documented. Inflation has zero impact on a household as long as their savings are kept in assets other than cash.