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There is a reason GWB did not want the US to be recognize the International Criminal Court. And why Bill Clinton thought it was important: that was about making

by Iv 7y ago

There is a reason GWB did not want the US to be recognize the International Criminal Court. And why Bill Clinton thought it was important: that was about making sure US remains the good guy despite being (during the 90-2020 period) the only superpower left. Instead, you guys chose the other path.

GuiA 7y ago
Saying “you guys” when talking to individual citizens (especially online) regarding actions of their government (especially when they were 3 decades ago) is unnecessarily antagonistic.
- thundergolfer 7y ago
  No who you’re reply to, but while I can see that it is a little antagonistic are you suggesting that citizens shouldn’t feel responsible for their government? You do realise that the USA is supposed to have a government “of the people, by the people, and for the people”? In my view there isn’t enough responsibility taken by US citizens for their government, certainly stemming from a lack of general citizen engagement in politics in the USA , so it might be actually helpful to remind people that their government is their responsibility.
  - GuiA 7y ago
    Strawman, that is not what I am saying at all. Merely that in space meant to foster constructive conversation - which HN aims to be - ending a comment with "you guys chose to do X" when talking about controversial political decisions goes against the spirit of the space. And if you really believe what you've written, feel free to disclose what government(s) you answer to and what you've personally done to right their wrongs.
    - thundergolfer 7y ago
      Perhaps, I'm not that familiar with the "spirit" of HN, but that comment seemed pretty mild to me. To your last sentence, first, yes I believe what I've written. I am an Australian citizen. I personally don't think I do enough to "right [our] wrongs", but that doesn't stop me believing in the principle of democratic responsibility. I recently have gone to a Climate Change protest, voted, and donated 10% of my salary to helping people who deserve help but aren't getting it from our government. Day-to-day I also avoid participating in activities I believe are wrong but which are made illegal/regulated in my society (eg. eating meat). But again, the above is kinda besides the point. I believe in democratic responsibility so look first to question what I'm able to do rather than blaming some third-party, and wouldn't complain about "you guys chose..." phrasing.
  - Cougher 7y ago
    "You do realise that the USA is supposed to have a government “of the people, by the people, and for the people”?" Oh come on. A simple slogan is hardly evidence that we're all individually and collectively responsible for the things our government does.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - thundergolfer 7y ago
      It's hardly a "simple slogan". It's supposed to be the foundational ethos of a democracy. The fact that most people in the USA do not care enough to live by it is a big problem. Unfortunately it seems people like don't even believe in the ethos, so we're quite a long way from where Abe Lincoln wanted his country to be in this respect.
      - Cougher 7y ago
        TIL that Abraham Lincoln founded our country on a vision statement.
        SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
        "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." We the People. Not "We the currently elected and appointed politicians and bureaucrats."
  - wbronitsky 7y ago
    The argument that 330+ million people should feel responsible for the outcomes of tens of thousands of elections they cannot vote in is absurd. You might as well say that someone in Germany should take more responsibility for the actions of the Catalonian separatists. It is on its face ridiculous. There is literally nothing I can do about, say, the governor of a state not stepping down when he loses an election.
- Iv 7y ago
  Sorry about that, I usually assume people are my age and were alive and voting at the time.
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    Even if we are, we may still not be responsible for the government's actions. The US is run by majority rule, so when something is decided, it doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the whole citizenry.
    - spaced-out 7y ago
      The US is not run by majority rule, the most obvious evidence for that is that the person who got to most votes in the last presidential election is not the president. If you want more evidence, look at the shape of some of the Congressional districts to see how politicians can pick their voters so that their election is a foregone conclusion. The US has a representative government which the voters have influence on, but they don't get the final say.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Even if we are, we may still not be responsible for the government's actions. The US is run by majority rule, so when something is decided, it doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the whole citizenry. Even in a dictatorship the people are partially responsible for what they didn't stop from happening. It's not like "I was in the minority, so I have no responsibility at all". How do we feel about German citizens in the 30s who went on doing their business, knowing what was going on, and merely "disagreeing" with it? At best they were cowards. At worst they were enablers...
      - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
        It sounds like you are blaming the victims here. Were the Jews, gays, Gypsies etc. in Germany also partially responsible?
        7y ago
- sneak 7y ago
  More accurate would be the objectively true statement: Most Americans were unaware of this and were not involved in the decision to do so in any way whatsoever.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Citizens in a democracy share responsibly for the actions of their government. Heck, even citizens in an authoritarian regime share responsibly for its actions - if they didn't do anything to oppose them. Merely disagreeing with the actions, or minding their own personal affairs, don't absolve of the responsibility. We should think of them the same way we talk about those Germans who knew what was going on (re Jews, camps, etc) but kept their mouth shut, tended to their families and jobs, and pretended it was business as usual.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - sneak 7y ago
    I do not think that living in a place makes you responsible for e.g. murders done by people you have never met who are in a different place (but aren’t so far away as to be a TOTALLY different place), no.

by Iv 7y ago

GuiA 7y ago

Saying “you guys” when talking to individual citizens (especially online) regarding actions of their government (especially when they were 3 decades ago) is unnecessarily antagonistic.

thundergolfer 7y ago
No who you’re reply to, but while I can see that it is a little antagonistic are you suggesting that citizens shouldn’t feel responsible for their government? You do realise that the USA is supposed to have a government “of the people, by the people, and for the people”? In my view there isn’t enough responsibility taken by US citizens for their government, certainly stemming from a lack of general citizen engagement in politics in the USA , so it might be actually helpful to remind people that their government is their responsibility.
- GuiA 7y ago
  Strawman, that is not what I am saying at all. Merely that in space meant to foster constructive conversation - which HN aims to be - ending a comment with "you guys chose to do X" when talking about controversial political decisions goes against the spirit of the space. And if you really believe what you've written, feel free to disclose what government(s) you answer to and what you've personally done to right their wrongs.
  - thundergolfer 7y ago
    Perhaps, I'm not that familiar with the "spirit" of HN, but that comment seemed pretty mild to me. To your last sentence, first, yes I believe what I've written. I am an Australian citizen. I personally don't think I do enough to "right [our] wrongs", but that doesn't stop me believing in the principle of democratic responsibility. I recently have gone to a Climate Change protest, voted, and donated 10% of my salary to helping people who deserve help but aren't getting it from our government. Day-to-day I also avoid participating in activities I believe are wrong but which are made illegal/regulated in my society (eg. eating meat). But again, the above is kinda besides the point. I believe in democratic responsibility so look first to question what I'm able to do rather than blaming some third-party, and wouldn't complain about "you guys chose..." phrasing.
- Cougher 7y ago
  "You do realise that the USA is supposed to have a government “of the people, by the people, and for the people”?" Oh come on. A simple slogan is hardly evidence that we're all individually and collectively responsible for the things our government does.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - thundergolfer 7y ago
    It's hardly a "simple slogan". It's supposed to be the foundational ethos of a democracy. The fact that most people in the USA do not care enough to live by it is a big problem. Unfortunately it seems people like don't even believe in the ethos, so we're quite a long way from where Abe Lincoln wanted his country to be in this respect.
    - Cougher 7y ago
      TIL that Abraham Lincoln founded our country on a vision statement.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
        "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." We the People. Not "We the currently elected and appointed politicians and bureaucrats."
- wbronitsky 7y ago
  The argument that 330+ million people should feel responsible for the outcomes of tens of thousands of elections they cannot vote in is absurd. You might as well say that someone in Germany should take more responsibility for the actions of the Catalonian separatists. It is on its face ridiculous. There is literally nothing I can do about, say, the governor of a state not stepping down when he loses an election.
Iv 7y ago
Sorry about that, I usually assume people are my age and were alive and voting at the time.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  Even if we are, we may still not be responsible for the government's actions. The US is run by majority rule, so when something is decided, it doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the whole citizenry.
  - spaced-out 7y ago
    The US is not run by majority rule, the most obvious evidence for that is that the person who got to most votes in the last presidential election is not the president. If you want more evidence, look at the shape of some of the Congressional districts to see how politicians can pick their voters so that their election is a foregone conclusion. The US has a representative government which the voters have influence on, but they don't get the final say.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Even if we are, we may still not be responsible for the government's actions. The US is run by majority rule, so when something is decided, it doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the whole citizenry. Even in a dictatorship the people are partially responsible for what they didn't stop from happening. It's not like "I was in the minority, so I have no responsibility at all". How do we feel about German citizens in the 30s who went on doing their business, knowing what was going on, and merely "disagreeing" with it? At best they were cowards. At worst they were enablers...
    - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
      It sounds like you are blaming the victims here. Were the Jews, gays, Gypsies etc. in Germany also partially responsible?
      - 7y ago
sneak 7y ago
More accurate would be the objectively true statement: Most Americans were unaware of this and were not involved in the decision to do so in any way whatsoever.
coldtea 7y ago
Citizens in a democracy share responsibly for the actions of their government. Heck, even citizens in an authoritarian regime share responsibly for its actions - if they didn't do anything to oppose them. Merely disagreeing with the actions, or minding their own personal affairs, don't absolve of the responsibility. We should think of them the same way we talk about those Germans who knew what was going on (re Jews, camps, etc) but kept their mouth shut, tended to their families and jobs, and pretended it was business as usual.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sneak 7y ago
  I do not think that living in a place makes you responsible for e.g. murders done by people you have never met who are in a different place (but aren’t so far away as to be a TOTALLY different place), no.