7 ms·

> To feel depressed about the state of your life is to demonstrate capacity to imagine something different, and that spark of imagination can prove a motive to

> To feel depressed about the state of your life is to demonstrate capacity to imagine something different, and that spark of imagination can prove a motive to change. This was arguably true for me, but not in a good way. I'm pretty sure that I started having intrusive suicidal thoughts because my depression had motivated me to try to change. Said changes utterly failed to even make a dent in my depression, finally convincing me that nothing I did would ever make me feel good again (this was after multiple trials of antidepressants and talk therapy over the course of 10+ years; it's not like this was the first thing I tried). All the generic "there is hope" and "antidepressants really work" and "go to therapy" talk that tends to surround mental illness discussion really bugs me because virtually nobody acknowledges the damage that's done when these things fail (and they fail frequently). It doesn't just damage trust in mental health professionals, it hurts the credibility of recovery as a concept.

exolymph 7y ago
> Said changes utterly failed to even make a dent in my depression, finally convincing me that nothing I did would ever make me feel good again (this was after multiple trials of antidepressants and talk therapy over the course of 10+ years; it's not like this was the first thing I tried). Oof, I didn't have quite as hard of a time as you, but that description resonates a lot. My experience(s) with depression have taught me to never make empty promises to people — it is cruel to present psychiatry or therapy as One Weird Trick™ that'll definitely solve your problems, as opposed to an option worth trying. In reality it's a crapshoot and you might luck out, but you also might not.
- canada_dry 7y ago
  > taught me to never make empty promises to people Yes, I suspect this is probably a key trigger for suicidal people. You get a well meaning parent/sibling/relative that quickly gets in over their head trying to deal with a seriously depressed/mentally ill person and often they resort to this. A useful public service message would connect people in this position to contact mental health support services themselves to better understand how to help the individual they care about. In a better world we have services available for both the mentally ill, and for the people (spouse, parent, etc) that are supporting them.
  - Cougher 7y ago
    You guys are touching on something that's been grinding my gears for years: the large number of people who parrot vacuous feel-goodies from pop-psych purveyors like Wayne Dyer and Zig Ziglar as though they're user manuals to fix lives.
RobertRoberts 7y ago
The only thing that helped me with decades of depression was real hope. And even then it took years of having hope with lots of support from family (generic support in life, I kept my depression a secret) before I finally beat depression. I've been free of suicidal thoughts for about 6 or 7 years now. I don't think there is a short cut. Keep working at it. Look for reasons to keep fighting and you will find them eventually. If you look for reasons to be depressed and give up you will find them too. Stick with it even if you don't feel better. What other choice do you have? It's a sucky reality while you are in it. But one thing that helped me was to focus on other people. Especially when I felt my worst. It gave me just the tinniest amount of reason to keep going. And sometimes that is all you are going to get. I am really sorry you are stuck here. There are a lot of people who understand how truly awful it can be. I just put an email address in my about. I don't check it often. But feel free to email me if you just want to vent.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  What do you mean by 'real hope'? Just curious.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    I hesitate to give a specific answer here, because I think many people will find different things are "hope" for them. And if I give what I found it will come off as unhelpful. When I was young I nearly succeeding is ending my life (early teens) and at that moment I knew I didn't truly want to die, but I so desperately needed the pain to end. So going down wasn't an answer, I had to keep going up no matter what and I tried to find any reason I could to keep going. This didn't stop my attempts, but it slowed them down some, and so I floated in a destructive despair for years while I tried to figure things out. I have seen other people turn things around for themselves and it really turned out to be that everyone that did was looking for something important. And I don't mean figuratively here, they actually took real action, real effort to find something, anything, any reason to keep going. And that is why I know this is so hard, because when you are in the deep end of despair, the last thing you have motivation for is to put effort into something that will make you feel better in a few years, or even tomorrow. But it's the only way out that I found. Eventually I found a number of reasons that I really needed to stay alive. None of them on their own were enough, but I found that all of them together were enough on some days to get me out of bed or to put the knife down. That's not much motivation or hope, but it was a start. And I kept adding a little bit at a time. I reminded myself constantly, especially at my worst, that it's better to pull a splinter out than leave it in. I will feel better if I trust what I have already proven is true, even if I don't feel it right now. Especially if I don't feel it... So, what is real hope? Something you know is true, even if you don't feel like believing it's true. There are people that would be better off for you being alive than dead. That is a grain of sand of hope for others that gives you something back. It's a start. I made rules for myself, things I could say to myself, some multiple times a day. These things are all true, and I've proved them to myself time and time again, and I use them to overcome despair and overwhelming emotions that will wreck my day. Here's a few. -Everything is ok right now. I am fine. I say this when I feel like everything is going to fall apart today. But right now, in this moment, then next 30 seconds or whatever, it's ok and this is true every time I say it. I have a house, food, I have a wife and kids, I have work. Right now, in this moment everything is ok. It can get me out of the worst moments. -I can do this one thing. (I don't have to face everything right now) This is how I get myself out of bed and into the shower every day. (I say, "I can take a shower, I can handle this one thing") Even though I am no longer suicidal (a life altering thing) I still deal with massive waves of emotions that I must battle, but I win every battle one at a time. I remind myself that I like sitting under the warm shower and I will enjoy it when I am done. And I know it's better that my kids see a functional adult, and my co-workers don't have a smelly bum next to them. All of this are tiny things to look forward to in the future that help me do something right now. -Don't make things worse. I say this to convince myself not to make a destructive decision, because it will make tomorrow harder for me. Something as simple as drinking too much, or staying up too late with entertainment, anything that will make tomorrow harder is just going to allow despair to creep back in. -I don't get to have this. There are some things (as I have gotten older) I realize I just don't get to have, and I need to be ok with this. And often times that means, I don't get to feel happy right now. I can feel happy later. This helps me make better long term decisions. -It's worth doing this. I remind myself that every time I have done the right thing it has paid off. I know I will feel better at the end of the day if I get work done instead of collapsing into bed. Even if I feel horrible all day, I will be better off and grateful for making the decision later. -I am scared of this so I have to do it. Most of what stopped me from doing things that helped me vs things that hurt me was I was scared to do them. But the few times I was in a corner and had to do something scary, I was grateful I had made it through afterwards. So now if I can do something scary without my back in a corner, then I know I will be better off later. (something that can be scary is just talking to my wife about something personal, it doesn't have to be a big thing to be scary) I don't use this rule to make foolish decisions, I logically know I shouldn't do "everything" that I am scared of... -There are people that need me today. I have found that the most important element to turning things around was to do _more_ in my life not less. Less is staying in bed all day because I just can't move. And this has been a lot of days for me. I figured this was better than offing myself, and that is true. And when I put myself in a position where people needed, something that is really hard to do, it gave me motivation to keep going. It's frequently scary and unpleasant, but I have proved it works at helping me stay alive. -I did poorly and things didn't go well. I am sorry and I will try and do better. I found that if I openly acknowledge my failures to myself, that I can face them better. And if I admit them openly to others, I always (so far) have gotten support and understanding. This has been a life line when I have fallen apart and I simply couldn't do what I should have done. I say sorry to people and tell them what I will do to fix what I messed up. This is humbling but helps with my other rule "don't make things worse". -Get something done, anything. I found that if I can get myself to do _anything_ at all done, it will make nearly impossible tasks look a little more possible. This applies to work but also with my relationships. There are things I really want to turn around with my marriage, but right now I just can't. But I have made progress in the past, and I know that if I can get one thing better, it will be better for both of us. Success of any kind seems to be a lubricant for more success, and getting started is so hard and painful that sometimes all I can do is just one tiny, tiny thing. And I have to remember that that is really valuable, and that I should do it. I imagine other people will make their own rules and find things in their life worth living for. You just can't give up and you have to actively look for something good. This got really long, but maybe there is something here that will help someone else. Sorry if this didn't answer your question well.
sjg007 7y ago
Are you still depressed? I try to have 5 good days out of 7 in a week. I found that CBT helps especially the book Feeling Good by David Burns. He has a podcast out now about a new team base cbt approach. The podcast is great and the workbooks in his books are really helpful. He has an associated clinic in Mountain View as well. The approach is practical and specific. CBT has roots in Buddhism and stoicism as well for the life hacker types we see here on HN from time to time. The basic idea is that your thoughts create your feelings. There are a lot of tools to help identify and understand those thoughts.
- randycupertino 7y ago
  > especially the book Feeling Good by David Burns. This book changed my life for the better, as well as The Depression Cure by Stephen Ilardi. Both of them combined got me out of a deep multi-yearlong depression and allowed me to get married, get a better job, be more productive, more active and much much happier. I still have relapses every 6 months or so but I go back to the books and re-read my margin notes and highlights and it always helps. I didn't know Dr. Burns had a clinic in mountain view. Interesting!
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  I'm not sure whether I'd actually meet the criteria for a depression diagnosis anymore. I haven't been severely depressed since starting CPAP treatment, but my emotional experience is still very flat and I still have difficulty processing social interaction. I've heard of Feeling Good and CBT in general, and without going into the gory details, it really doesn't sound like it's the right approach for me.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    Are you saying sleep apnea the root cause of your depression?
    - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
      No, I'm not saying that. I can't rule it out, but based on other symptoms I've had for a long time I think it's more likely that it was "just" making everything more stressful and reducing my ability to cope in general.
viburnum 7y ago
This has been my experience as well.
michaelmrose 7y ago
That is very insightful thanks for sharing this.
throwaway39940 7y ago
> All the generic "there is hope" and "antidepressants really work" and "go to therapy" talk that tends to surround mental illness discussion really bugs me because virtually nobody acknowledges the damage that's done when these things fail (and they fail frequently). Exactly. When highly suicidal last year my reasoning was that I'd tried so many therapies (medication, talking, multiple practitioners) without success that I cannot be fixed and it's time to leave. The typical suicide response ("call a crisis line" or "talk to your GP") is reasonable, but many suicidal people are far beyond that. For them the community sends around the Police to lock you up in a ward (ie "you're now scheduled") and many of those people - myself included - find it the most horrific experience of their law-abiding lifetime and understandably double down on getting away before they're unconscionably locked up again. In a nutshell the mental health system often destroys the last hope someone had by imposing punitive sanctions with minimal insight or empathy. Have a read of a random selection of non-custodial suicide case studies at http://www.coroners.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/findings.aspx http://www.coroners.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/findings.aspx and judge for yourself. The real issue here is how to better supervise the delivery of psychology and psychiatry programs so ineffective solutions for a specific person are gracefully transitioned into something else before all hope is lost. A severely depressed person isn't well-equipped to assess treatment and practitioners are too incentivized (or perhaps imprudent) to self-regulate their ineffectiveness.

exolymph 7y ago

> Said changes utterly failed to even make a dent in my depression, finally convincing me that nothing I did would ever make me feel good again (this was after multiple trials of antidepressants and talk therapy over the course of 10+ years; it's not like this was the first thing I tried). Oof, I didn't have quite as hard of a time as you, but that description resonates a lot. My experience(s) with depression have taught me to never make empty promises to people — it is cruel to present psychiatry or therapy as One Weird Trick™ that'll definitely solve your problems, as opposed to an option worth trying. In reality it's a crapshoot and you might luck out, but you also might not.

canada_dry 7y ago
> taught me to never make empty promises to people Yes, I suspect this is probably a key trigger for suicidal people. You get a well meaning parent/sibling/relative that quickly gets in over their head trying to deal with a seriously depressed/mentally ill person and often they resort to this. A useful public service message would connect people in this position to contact mental health support services themselves to better understand how to help the individual they care about. In a better world we have services available for both the mentally ill, and for the people (spouse, parent, etc) that are supporting them.
- Cougher 7y ago
  You guys are touching on something that's been grinding my gears for years: the large number of people who parrot vacuous feel-goodies from pop-psych purveyors like Wayne Dyer and Zig Ziglar as though they're user manuals to fix lives.

RobertRoberts 7y ago

The only thing that helped me with decades of depression was real hope. And even then it took years of having hope with lots of support from family (generic support in life, I kept my depression a secret) before I finally beat depression. I've been free of suicidal thoughts for about 6 or 7 years now. I don't think there is a short cut. Keep working at it. Look for reasons to keep fighting and you will find them eventually. If you look for reasons to be depressed and give up you will find them too. Stick with it even if you don't feel better. What other choice do you have? It's a sucky reality while you are in it. But one thing that helped me was to focus on other people. Especially when I felt my worst. It gave me just the tinniest amount of reason to keep going. And sometimes that is all you are going to get. I am really sorry you are stuck here. There are a lot of people who understand how truly awful it can be. I just put an email address in my about. I don't check it often. But feel free to email me if you just want to vent.

nickthemagicman 7y ago
What do you mean by 'real hope'? Just curious.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  I hesitate to give a specific answer here, because I think many people will find different things are "hope" for them. And if I give what I found it will come off as unhelpful. When I was young I nearly succeeding is ending my life (early teens) and at that moment I knew I didn't truly want to die, but I so desperately needed the pain to end. So going down wasn't an answer, I had to keep going up no matter what and I tried to find any reason I could to keep going. This didn't stop my attempts, but it slowed them down some, and so I floated in a destructive despair for years while I tried to figure things out. I have seen other people turn things around for themselves and it really turned out to be that everyone that did was looking for something important. And I don't mean figuratively here, they actually took real action, real effort to find something, anything, any reason to keep going. And that is why I know this is so hard, because when you are in the deep end of despair, the last thing you have motivation for is to put effort into something that will make you feel better in a few years, or even tomorrow. But it's the only way out that I found. Eventually I found a number of reasons that I really needed to stay alive. None of them on their own were enough, but I found that all of them together were enough on some days to get me out of bed or to put the knife down. That's not much motivation or hope, but it was a start. And I kept adding a little bit at a time. I reminded myself constantly, especially at my worst, that it's better to pull a splinter out than leave it in. I will feel better if I trust what I have already proven is true, even if I don't feel it right now. Especially if I don't feel it... So, what is real hope? Something you know is true, even if you don't feel like believing it's true. There are people that would be better off for you being alive than dead. That is a grain of sand of hope for others that gives you something back. It's a start. I made rules for myself, things I could say to myself, some multiple times a day. These things are all true, and I've proved them to myself time and time again, and I use them to overcome despair and overwhelming emotions that will wreck my day. Here's a few. -Everything is ok right now. I am fine. I say this when I feel like everything is going to fall apart today. But right now, in this moment, then next 30 seconds or whatever, it's ok and this is true every time I say it. I have a house, food, I have a wife and kids, I have work. Right now, in this moment everything is ok. It can get me out of the worst moments. -I can do this one thing. (I don't have to face everything right now) This is how I get myself out of bed and into the shower every day. (I say, "I can take a shower, I can handle this one thing") Even though I am no longer suicidal (a life altering thing) I still deal with massive waves of emotions that I must battle, but I win every battle one at a time. I remind myself that I like sitting under the warm shower and I will enjoy it when I am done. And I know it's better that my kids see a functional adult, and my co-workers don't have a smelly bum next to them. All of this are tiny things to look forward to in the future that help me do something right now. -Don't make things worse. I say this to convince myself not to make a destructive decision, because it will make tomorrow harder for me. Something as simple as drinking too much, or staying up too late with entertainment, anything that will make tomorrow harder is just going to allow despair to creep back in. -I don't get to have this. There are some things (as I have gotten older) I realize I just don't get to have, and I need to be ok with this. And often times that means, I don't get to feel happy right now. I can feel happy later. This helps me make better long term decisions. -It's worth doing this. I remind myself that every time I have done the right thing it has paid off. I know I will feel better at the end of the day if I get work done instead of collapsing into bed. Even if I feel horrible all day, I will be better off and grateful for making the decision later. -I am scared of this so I have to do it. Most of what stopped me from doing things that helped me vs things that hurt me was I was scared to do them. But the few times I was in a corner and had to do something scary, I was grateful I had made it through afterwards. So now if I can do something scary without my back in a corner, then I know I will be better off later. (something that can be scary is just talking to my wife about something personal, it doesn't have to be a big thing to be scary) I don't use this rule to make foolish decisions, I logically know I shouldn't do "everything" that I am scared of... -There are people that need me today. I have found that the most important element to turning things around was to do _more_ in my life not less. Less is staying in bed all day because I just can't move. And this has been a lot of days for me. I figured this was better than offing myself, and that is true. And when I put myself in a position where people needed, something that is really hard to do, it gave me motivation to keep going. It's frequently scary and unpleasant, but I have proved it works at helping me stay alive. -I did poorly and things didn't go well. I am sorry and I will try and do better. I found that if I openly acknowledge my failures to myself, that I can face them better. And if I admit them openly to others, I always (so far) have gotten support and understanding. This has been a life line when I have fallen apart and I simply couldn't do what I should have done. I say sorry to people and tell them what I will do to fix what I messed up. This is humbling but helps with my other rule "don't make things worse". -Get something done, anything. I found that if I can get myself to do _anything_ at all done, it will make nearly impossible tasks look a little more possible. This applies to work but also with my relationships. There are things I really want to turn around with my marriage, but right now I just can't. But I have made progress in the past, and I know that if I can get one thing better, it will be better for both of us. Success of any kind seems to be a lubricant for more success, and getting started is so hard and painful that sometimes all I can do is just one tiny, tiny thing. And I have to remember that that is really valuable, and that I should do it. I imagine other people will make their own rules and find things in their life worth living for. You just can't give up and you have to actively look for something good. This got really long, but maybe there is something here that will help someone else. Sorry if this didn't answer your question well.

sjg007 7y ago

Are you still depressed? I try to have 5 good days out of 7 in a week. I found that CBT helps especially the book Feeling Good by David Burns. He has a podcast out now about a new team base cbt approach. The podcast is great and the workbooks in his books are really helpful. He has an associated clinic in Mountain View as well. The approach is practical and specific. CBT has roots in Buddhism and stoicism as well for the life hacker types we see here on HN from time to time. The basic idea is that your thoughts create your feelings. There are a lot of tools to help identify and understand those thoughts.

randycupertino 7y ago
> especially the book Feeling Good by David Burns. This book changed my life for the better, as well as The Depression Cure by Stephen Ilardi. Both of them combined got me out of a deep multi-yearlong depression and allowed me to get married, get a better job, be more productive, more active and much much happier. I still have relapses every 6 months or so but I go back to the books and re-read my margin notes and highlights and it always helps. I didn't know Dr. Burns had a clinic in mountain view. Interesting!
0xcde4c3db 7y ago
I'm not sure whether I'd actually meet the criteria for a depression diagnosis anymore. I haven't been severely depressed since starting CPAP treatment, but my emotional experience is still very flat and I still have difficulty processing social interaction. I've heard of Feeling Good and CBT in general, and without going into the gory details, it really doesn't sound like it's the right approach for me.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  Are you saying sleep apnea the root cause of your depression?
  - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
    No, I'm not saying that. I can't rule it out, but based on other symptoms I've had for a long time I think it's more likely that it was "just" making everything more stressful and reducing my ability to cope in general.

viburnum 7y ago

This has been my experience as well.

michaelmrose 7y ago

That is very insightful thanks for sharing this.

throwaway39940 7y ago

> All the generic "there is hope" and "antidepressants really work" and "go to therapy" talk that tends to surround mental illness discussion really bugs me because virtually nobody acknowledges the damage that's done when these things fail (and they fail frequently). Exactly. When highly suicidal last year my reasoning was that I'd tried so many therapies (medication, talking, multiple practitioners) without success that I cannot be fixed and it's time to leave. The typical suicide response ("call a crisis line" or "talk to your GP") is reasonable, but many suicidal people are far beyond that. For them the community sends around the Police to lock you up in a ward (ie "you're now scheduled") and many of those people - myself included - find it the most horrific experience of their law-abiding lifetime and understandably double down on getting away before they're unconscionably locked up again. In a nutshell the mental health system often destroys the last hope someone had by imposing punitive sanctions with minimal insight or empathy. Have a read of a random selection of non-custodial suicide case studies at http://www.coroners.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/findings.aspx http://www.coroners.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/findings.aspx and judge for yourself. The real issue here is how to better supervise the delivery of psychology and psychiatry programs so ineffective solutions for a specific person are gracefully transitioned into something else before all hope is lost. A severely depressed person isn't well-equipped to assess treatment and practitioners are too incentivized (or perhaps imprudent) to self-regulate their ineffectiveness.