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Given that they’re currently producing over 90,000 cars per quarter, and that their products have consistently been the benchmark EV for eight years, I think th

Given that they’re currently producing over 90,000 cars per quarter, and that their products have consistently been the benchmark EV for eight years, I think there are plenty of other favourable things you could say about them? I’m not remotely a fanboy of that company but your comment does seem to be out of whack with the scale of their success despite gargantuan odds.

new_realist 7y ago
“They sell more EVs than anyone else, because they are willing to lose more money than anyone else” is perhaps the most charitable thing I could say. I believe they’ve gone through about $20B in cash and lost $6.5B of it. “Not quite the WeWork of cars” is another.
- nikofeyn 7y ago
  they don’t sell anywhere close to “more EVs than anyone else”.
  - MattRix 7y ago
    Yes they do. Not sure what numbers you're looking at to say otherwise.
    - dimator 7y ago
      You are correct https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/evs-percent-of-vehicle-sales-by-brand/ https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/evs-percent-of-vehicle-sales...
      - nikofeyn 7y ago
        nope. see my other comment. tesla is not the world’s largest electric vehicle seller.
        jiofih 7y ago
        In the link above they are at ~200k units vs 36k for the second place (Chevrolet). Nobody said “world”, and even there they are tied up with BYD which has it easy with a giant billion-people closed market and local manufacturing. What are you trying to prove?
    - nikofeyn 7y ago
      nope. although, i was wrong about not even close. it seems i was remembering an old stat. https://thedriven.io/2019/02/06/tesla-byd-fight-for-lead-in-global-ev/ https://thedriven.io/2019/02/06/tesla-byd-fight-for-lead-in-... https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-car-sales-china-vs-tesla https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-car-sales-china-vs-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-16/the-world-s-biggest-electric-vehicle-company-looks-nothing-like-tesla https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-16/the-world... https://qz.com/1606881/chinas-byd-reports-632-jump-in-profits-as-rival-tesla-falters/ https://qz.com/1606881/chinas-byd-reports-632-jump-in-profit...
      - erulabs 7y ago
        Your first link says: > Looking purely at BEV sales (according to data from EV-Volumes), Tesla leads the way That first chart that confirms your beliefs measures both EV and Hybrid. I seriously doubt anyone is conflating those two things here. Additionally, considering both EV and Hybrid, the difference between Tesla and BYD is less than one percent. Your arguments would be much more persuasive if you weren't so clearly biased...
DanCarvajal 7y ago
Their competition for those years has been companies that only producing compliance cars for the California market. Are you really the benchmark when no one else has been trying? I do think the Model 3 caught everyone's attention though, but I'm deeply skeptical that Tesla has any significant first mover advantage. Car companies aren't exactly unique.
- brianwawok 7y ago
  What % of global battery capacity does Tesla have? How long would it take the Fords to catch up?
  - DanCarvajal 7y ago
    It took what, a few years for Tesla to get to what is hays now? You saying Hyundai and Toyota couldn't do that in the same amount of time or less. We're talking about Tesla competing with some of the largest industrial manufacturers in the world, and you think a few years heads start is a significant first move advantage?
- MattRix 7y ago
  You don't think having much more battery production capacity or a massive network of superchargers is a significant advantage?
  - DanCarvajal 7y ago
    You don't think Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, Hyundai, or GM couldn't do any of these things too? They're some of the largest industrial manufacturers in the world.
    - kayamon 7y ago
      Couldn’t is not the same as haven’t.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      It'd be nice if they did.
nullc 7y ago
> the benchmark EV for eight years Really? Tesla is spyware on wheels. The first time I can remember hearing about their consumer products was about someone finding their car remotely disabled because they'd found an ethernet port in it and plugged into it. I mostly see it referenced in a mocking way about conspicuous consumption and weird corporate antics. They were even made fun of on the TV show Silicon Valley. We have an EV at my household (a nissan leaf) which we like very much. A tesla would never have been a consideration. Googling briefly shows that worldwide leafs outnumber tesla on the road by a significant margin. I think we inhabit very different bubbles.
- erulabs 7y ago
  > Googling briefly shows I do not understand how people can confirm their beliefs so quickly with such little effort. If a stat makes you feel good, you should probably look into more than usual. According to insideevs.com and QZ.com, in the US, there are 133,178 Leafs sold _ever_ since 2010. Since 2017, there have been 190,000 Model 3s sold. Sources: https://qz.com/1703260/teslas-model-3-may-never-catch-up-to-the-nissan-leaf/ https://qz.com/1703260/teslas-model-3-may-never-catch-up-to-... https://insideevs.com/news/347565/nissan-leaf-sales-outlook-us-2019/ https://insideevs.com/news/347565/nissan-leaf-sales-outlook-... When considering globally, 200,000 Leafs were sold in the first 5 years on the market. The Model approaches that number in a single year (2019) in a single country (US). It's _somewhat_ possible, that for a brief period of time in early 2018, it was true there were more Leafs on the road than Teslas, but that's a bit like being a Nokia fan on January 10th, 2007 saying "Oh, but there are far more Nokias than iPhones in the world". Certainly not a "significant margin". It's totally and completely fine to dislike Telsa - and I don't disagree with the spyware comment, but please don't decide a thing, and then go google to find evidence of that thing you decided.
  - nullc 7y ago
    Ironically, you chastise me on stats but then use a figure for the leaf half its total global sales. Nissan announced hitting 400,000 total sold in march: https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-a70f8c4b4ee0499b978e217ab10f37be-nissan-leaf-first-electric-car-to-pass-400-000-sales https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-a70f8c4b4e... It's a little hard to make an apples to apples comparison because tesla was apparently taking money-down preorders for years while Nissan was actually shipping cars. Shipping obviously results in installed base advantages, but preorders obviously result in sales rate advantages. I'll take your word for it that there are just now more tesla on the road although articles at least as recent as two months ago state otherwise-- but that doesn't really contradict my comment above that the statement that the claim that tesla is the 'benchmark ev' is odd to me.

new_realist 7y ago

“They sell more EVs than anyone else, because they are willing to lose more money than anyone else” is perhaps the most charitable thing I could say. I believe they’ve gone through about $20B in cash and lost $6.5B of it. “Not quite the WeWork of cars” is another.

nikofeyn 7y ago
they don’t sell anywhere close to “more EVs than anyone else”.
- MattRix 7y ago
  Yes they do. Not sure what numbers you're looking at to say otherwise.
  - dimator 7y ago
    You are correct https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/evs-percent-of-vehicle-sales-by-brand/ https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/evs-percent-of-vehicle-sales...
    - nikofeyn 7y ago
      nope. see my other comment. tesla is not the world’s largest electric vehicle seller.
      - jiofih 7y ago
        In the link above they are at ~200k units vs 36k for the second place (Chevrolet). Nobody said “world”, and even there they are tied up with BYD which has it easy with a giant billion-people closed market and local manufacturing. What are you trying to prove?
  - nikofeyn 7y ago
    nope. although, i was wrong about not even close. it seems i was remembering an old stat. https://thedriven.io/2019/02/06/tesla-byd-fight-for-lead-in-global-ev/ https://thedriven.io/2019/02/06/tesla-byd-fight-for-lead-in-... https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-car-sales-china-vs-tesla https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-car-sales-china-vs-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-16/the-world-s-biggest-electric-vehicle-company-looks-nothing-like-tesla https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-16/the-world... https://qz.com/1606881/chinas-byd-reports-632-jump-in-profits-as-rival-tesla-falters/ https://qz.com/1606881/chinas-byd-reports-632-jump-in-profit...
    - erulabs 7y ago
      Your first link says: > Looking purely at BEV sales (according to data from EV-Volumes), Tesla leads the way That first chart that confirms your beliefs measures both EV and Hybrid. I seriously doubt anyone is conflating those two things here. Additionally, considering both EV and Hybrid, the difference between Tesla and BYD is less than one percent. Your arguments would be much more persuasive if you weren't so clearly biased...

DanCarvajal 7y ago

Their competition for those years has been companies that only producing compliance cars for the California market. Are you really the benchmark when no one else has been trying? I do think the Model 3 caught everyone's attention though, but I'm deeply skeptical that Tesla has any significant first mover advantage. Car companies aren't exactly unique.

brianwawok 7y ago
What % of global battery capacity does Tesla have? How long would it take the Fords to catch up?
- DanCarvajal 7y ago
  It took what, a few years for Tesla to get to what is hays now? You saying Hyundai and Toyota couldn't do that in the same amount of time or less. We're talking about Tesla competing with some of the largest industrial manufacturers in the world, and you think a few years heads start is a significant first move advantage?
MattRix 7y ago
You don't think having much more battery production capacity or a massive network of superchargers is a significant advantage?
- DanCarvajal 7y ago
  You don't think Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen, Hyundai, or GM couldn't do any of these things too? They're some of the largest industrial manufacturers in the world.
  - kayamon 7y ago
    Couldn’t is not the same as haven’t.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    It'd be nice if they did.

nullc 7y ago

> the benchmark EV for eight years Really? Tesla is spyware on wheels. The first time I can remember hearing about their consumer products was about someone finding their car remotely disabled because they'd found an ethernet port in it and plugged into it. I mostly see it referenced in a mocking way about conspicuous consumption and weird corporate antics. They were even made fun of on the TV show Silicon Valley. We have an EV at my household (a nissan leaf) which we like very much. A tesla would never have been a consideration. Googling briefly shows that worldwide leafs outnumber tesla on the road by a significant margin. I think we inhabit very different bubbles.

erulabs 7y ago
> Googling briefly shows I do not understand how people can confirm their beliefs so quickly with such little effort. If a stat makes you feel good, you should probably look into more than usual. According to insideevs.com and QZ.com, in the US, there are 133,178 Leafs sold _ever_ since 2010. Since 2017, there have been 190,000 Model 3s sold. Sources: https://qz.com/1703260/teslas-model-3-may-never-catch-up-to-the-nissan-leaf/ https://qz.com/1703260/teslas-model-3-may-never-catch-up-to-... https://insideevs.com/news/347565/nissan-leaf-sales-outlook-us-2019/ https://insideevs.com/news/347565/nissan-leaf-sales-outlook-... When considering globally, 200,000 Leafs were sold in the first 5 years on the market. The Model approaches that number in a single year (2019) in a single country (US). It's _somewhat_ possible, that for a brief period of time in early 2018, it was true there were more Leafs on the road than Teslas, but that's a bit like being a Nokia fan on January 10th, 2007 saying "Oh, but there are far more Nokias than iPhones in the world". Certainly not a "significant margin". It's totally and completely fine to dislike Telsa - and I don't disagree with the spyware comment, but please don't decide a thing, and then go google to find evidence of that thing you decided.
- nullc 7y ago
  Ironically, you chastise me on stats but then use a figure for the leaf half its total global sales. Nissan announced hitting 400,000 total sold in march: https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-a70f8c4b4ee0499b978e217ab10f37be-nissan-leaf-first-electric-car-to-pass-400-000-sales https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-a70f8c4b4e... It's a little hard to make an apples to apples comparison because tesla was apparently taking money-down preorders for years while Nissan was actually shipping cars. Shipping obviously results in installed base advantages, but preorders obviously result in sales rate advantages. I'll take your word for it that there are just now more tesla on the road although articles at least as recent as two months ago state otherwise-- but that doesn't really contradict my comment above that the statement that the claim that tesla is the 'benchmark ev' is odd to me.