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I've enjoyed the convenience of the Go stores since they opened, but one thing that's popped into my head is how 'classist' this type of store is, especially in

I've enjoyed the convenience of the Go stores since they opened, but one thing that's popped into my head is how 'classist' this type of store is, especially in a city like Seattle where they started. To be allowed into the store requires a few prerequisites which unfortunately not everyone has the benefit of possessing; smart phone with data service, credit card, amazon account. For most people this is no problem. But what about all the people who rely on cash based systems to exist? What about people who don't have smart phones with internet plans (though this is becoming an increasingly small population, it's still very prevalent)? Now what happens to those people when this becomes a standard and the alternative options diminish? Food deserts in underserved (poor) neighborhoods are already wide spread in the US, this credit based system which relies on an app will only make it harder for people who already suffer.

pkaye 7y ago
The same problem exists for Uber/Lyft and food delivery services.
- cle 7y ago
  The same problem exists for most advancements, it's not a new problem. You could say the same thing about cars, for example.
sithadmin 7y ago
There's an easy answer that's already prevalent in markets like Japan - just accept the local transit card as a payment option. It's something you can obtain with almost no regulatory friction whatsoever, and top off with cash easily. Likewise, it's treated like a cash payment at quick service restaurants, grocers, convenience stores, and many other types of retailer. The one problem Amazon would have here is preventing customers from leaving if their purchase exceeds their cash balance on the card. Seems relatively easy to stop with a 2-step system for exiting (cross a line/barrier to signal that you're leaving, wait for a physical barrier to open after the payment method is debited).
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  I think the whole business idea rests on Amazon knowing who you are and having access to your CC, to make theft hard.
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Nice side effect, that is true!
  - ignoramous 7y ago
    It doesn't strictly have to be that. The prepaid/debit/credit/charge card w/ NFC one uses to enter the premise can be the one that's charged against when one leaves. The card issuer can notify you of the charges once Amazon posts them. Amazon can verify for card-fraud as they already have tracking hardware installed.
skybrian 7y ago
Seems like you could say the same of Costco's membership fee? Or a store being in a place that's not easy to walk to?
- opnitro 7y ago
  Yes you could. In fact there are laws requiring you make your stores handicap accessible.
- wyre 7y ago
  You can pay cash as costco
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    You still have to have a membership unless you have a Costco cash card or go with a friend, and $60 or whatever upfront can be too much for many people. Also, it's a bit more expensive per visit since you need to buy in bulk. That being said, we have plenty of grocery stores in my area and they seem to compete quite well with Costco. I am not worried about these stores, and I don't plan on using them because I find them to be a privacy issue. I think there are plenty of people who either prefer cash or don't want to tie their food purchases to their Amazon account to keep traditional grocery stores in business.
    - PopeDotNinja 7y ago
      Being poor is expensive.
    - judge2020 7y ago
      I think you are being too optimistic with the last sentence. Whenever there is a tangible benefit that only has "mostly unseen" downsites, such as food prices being low since you're subsidizing Amazon training their rekognition software, people will take that benefit since the downside doesn't mean much to them (at least in the moment). Most people see their grocery bill going down non-unsubstantial amounts and take that as a good tradeoff for having cameras and sensors figure out what you're putting in your bag, and then later seeing that grocery visit in your Amazon order history.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
Can Amazon Go stores take EBT cards (aka food stamps)? I imagine not… even if they could process the payments, how would they enforce the restrictions on what food stamp recipients are allowed to buy?
- aianus 7y ago
  They could take EBT and a credit/debit card at the same time and put only the eligible products on the EBT.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
    Is someone on EBT really going to have a credit card?
    - grandmczeb 7y ago
      Lots of people on EBT have credit cards, it’s not like you need to be in extreme destitution to quality.
mattigames 7y ago
The same thing happened when commercial airplanes started, only the rich could afford tickets at the beginning, later they became affordable, so it's possible something similar well happen with automated stores.
- scarface74 7y ago
  It didn’t just happen. Government deregulation of airlines made it happen. But people are screaming for just the opposite with stores that don’t accept cash. They want government intervention.
BurningFrog 7y ago
This is a pretty epic Slippery Slope Argument. These stores are now < 0.1% of all stores. Worrying about what might go wrong if/when they're 90% seems very premature.
- chroem- 7y ago
  Ideally you want to tackle societal problems before they become intractable. See also: the mess that ad tracking analytics has grown into.
- wmeredith 7y ago
  I agree. As niche as these are ... who cares? I mean Ferrari dealerships are classist too, but there are other ways to get around.
beatgammit 7y ago
Like with most things, poor people make up a bit enough portion of the population that stores will always cater to them. Also, plenty of people value their privacy more than convenience, and those people won't shop at these Amazon stores. Just look at Amazon.com vs Walmart, Walmart is still in business, even though running a brick and mortar store is more expensive than an online store.
- Retric 7y ago
  Online is not always a net gain for the retailer. For something like 24 packs of water at Walmart it’s simpler to ship several pallets to one location and have people so last mile delivery to their house than to ship it directly to them. It’s largely shoplifting and floorspace that’s in online stores favor, but that’s only part of the equation.
  - flo123456 7y ago
    If only there was a good system to deliver water directly to your house.
    - Retric 7y ago
      The same applies to mulch, rock salt, or gasoline etc.
bahmboo 7y ago
You can enter without a phone and pay for items with cash. I found this information on the internet. But feel free to have a 20 deep discussion about it.
- jaredsohn 7y ago
  not at all locations
- kibibyte 7y ago
  As far as I know, they take cash because local governments are banning cashless stores.
Akababa 7y ago
I think the answer is not to hold back progress, but to address the pain points as they arise. As for the specific concerns of going "cashless", there are many countries with lower standard of living (Venezuela, China) than the US but near-ubiquitous cellphone payments, so I don't see this as a difficult problem to solve.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  zimbabwe is going bust - super high inflation, but ecocash (a mobile money platform) is THE way folks pay. Part of this is security - walking around with lots of cash / keeping it at home (which may be a shared room) is just not workable.
all_blue_chucks 7y ago
Amazon accounts are free. Surely you must complain much more vocally about Costco, Sam's Club, and other retailers that literally charge you money for the rights to shop there, right?
- aaronbrethorst 7y ago
  Amazon Go stores are located in very dense urban areas and—if successful—will drive out the 7-11s and other convenience stores in the area that accept cash. Costco, Sam's Club, and other similar 'big box' stores are usually located in less-dense areas and are not competing directly with 7-11s or other convenience stores.
  - all_blue_chucks 7y ago
    So you're saying a person needs to be wealthy enough buy a car AND a membership to shop there?
    - aaronbrethorst 7y ago
      I like the way that you’re moving the goalposts and trying to throw me off balance with this argument. Hope you have a great night.
- StuffedParrot 7y ago
  ....whataboutism....
grandmczeb 7y ago
> smart phone It’s not hard to get a cheap smartphone (something like 60-80% of homeless people own a smartphone based on a quick google) and if you qualify for SNAP, you can almost certainly get a free smartphone through the lifeline program. > data service Amazon Go stores have free WiFi. > credit card Edit: Originally stated you can use gift card credit, but that’s incorrect. You can get a secured card with no credit check though. > amazon account Free and obviously easy to get if you have access to the internet, which virtually everyone does through a public library.
scarface74 7y ago
Just for reference, 81% of Americans have smart phones. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/02/05/smartphone-ownership-is-growing-rapidly-around-the-world-but-not-always-equally/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/02/05/smartphone-own... 75% of Americans have credit cards. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/ownership-statistics.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/ownership-stati... 10% of Americans use only cash. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-statistics-1276.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- topkai22 7y ago
  But for perspective, 10% is a large portion of the population. As a population subgroup, Asian Americans only account for 7% of the US population.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    My purpose wasn’t to argue either way, I just wanted to add numbers to the discussions.
- ohbleek 7y ago
  Just for more clarity then: 62.7 million Americans don’t have smart phones 82.5 million Americans don’t have credit cards 33 million Americans use only cash Another way to look at it The equivalent of the entire population of the United Kingdom not having smart phones The entire population of Germany not having credit cards Nearly the entire population of Canada using only cash
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Are you basing that calculation on the total population or just adults?
StuffedParrot 7y ago
Wait, they don’t accept cash? How is that legal?
- mantap 7y ago
  It's usually only obligatory to accept cash for settling a debt, e.g. if you have eaten in a restaurant, the restaurant is obliged to accept cash, because you can hardly give back the food you already ate (at least in the same form). But if you are at McDonalds, there's no obligation for them to accept cash because you pay upfront.
seltzered_ 7y ago
I haven't stepped into a Amazon Go store yet, but the tradeoffs in requiring an account/app have been on my mind after experiencing the new Seattle Target in Ballard. It's entirely self-checkout (with an assistant or two there), but the dystopian part during the self-checkout process is an LCD monitor and camera right above you showing your face with "RECORDING IN PROGRESS" above. The Amazon Go convenience store at 920 5th Avenue (looking from the outside) felt a bit sad in their dining setup - it's a tiny bar that seemed designed for quick, alone consumption. I'm guessing most folks going there grab a lunch then go back to their office to eat. (image: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Go/@47.6063189,-122.331131,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM-tChpZh5n6ct5vpOKkGqY3lylwxj2J_rFMNGw!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM-tChpZh5n6ct5vpOKkGqY3lylwxj2J_rFMNGw%3Dw203-h135-k-no!7i5760!8i3840!4m8!1m2!2m1!1samazon+go!3m4!1s0x0:0x50ced0dc2ff24214!8m2!3d47.6063186!4d-122.3311302?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Go/@47.6063189,-122... )
daseiner1 7y ago
Given the makeup and general behavior of the Seattle population you describe, I’m quite confident deterring them from visiting was absolutely intentional by Amazon
faissaloo 7y ago
>credit card Is this to the exclusion of debit cards?
esotericn 7y ago
Aren't supermarkets in the US already subdivided anyway? In the UK we have at least three tiers of supermarket. You're not going to see the riff raff in Waitrose because they can't afford it. "Above" that you have more esoteric health shops. You might see middle-class folk who are cost-conscious (waves) in the low end supermarkets. Pound shops and discount retailers tend to have a specific style - music, decor etc - that reinforce the fact that they're 'poor people stores'. Sure, theoretically you could go and buy your groceries in the expensive stores if you're skint, but in practice no-one actually does that.

pkaye 7y ago

The same problem exists for Uber/Lyft and food delivery services.

cle 7y ago
The same problem exists for most advancements, it's not a new problem. You could say the same thing about cars, for example.

sithadmin 7y ago

There's an easy answer that's already prevalent in markets like Japan - just accept the local transit card as a payment option. It's something you can obtain with almost no regulatory friction whatsoever, and top off with cash easily. Likewise, it's treated like a cash payment at quick service restaurants, grocers, convenience stores, and many other types of retailer. The one problem Amazon would have here is preventing customers from leaving if their purchase exceeds their cash balance on the card. Seems relatively easy to stop with a 2-step system for exiting (cross a line/barrier to signal that you're leaving, wait for a physical barrier to open after the payment method is debited).

BurningFrog 7y ago
I think the whole business idea rests on Amazon knowing who you are and having access to your CC, to make theft hard.
- hef19898 7y ago
  Nice side effect, that is true!
- ignoramous 7y ago
  It doesn't strictly have to be that. The prepaid/debit/credit/charge card w/ NFC one uses to enter the premise can be the one that's charged against when one leaves. The card issuer can notify you of the charges once Amazon posts them. Amazon can verify for card-fraud as they already have tracking hardware installed.

skybrian 7y ago

Seems like you could say the same of Costco's membership fee? Or a store being in a place that's not easy to walk to?

opnitro 7y ago
Yes you could. In fact there are laws requiring you make your stores handicap accessible.
wyre 7y ago
You can pay cash as costco
- beatgammit 7y ago
  You still have to have a membership unless you have a Costco cash card or go with a friend, and $60 or whatever upfront can be too much for many people. Also, it's a bit more expensive per visit since you need to buy in bulk. That being said, we have plenty of grocery stores in my area and they seem to compete quite well with Costco. I am not worried about these stores, and I don't plan on using them because I find them to be a privacy issue. I think there are plenty of people who either prefer cash or don't want to tie their food purchases to their Amazon account to keep traditional grocery stores in business.
  - PopeDotNinja 7y ago
    Being poor is expensive.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    I think you are being too optimistic with the last sentence. Whenever there is a tangible benefit that only has "mostly unseen" downsites, such as food prices being low since you're subsidizing Amazon training their rekognition software, people will take that benefit since the downside doesn't mean much to them (at least in the moment). Most people see their grocery bill going down non-unsubstantial amounts and take that as a good tradeoff for having cameras and sensors figure out what you're putting in your bag, and then later seeing that grocery visit in your Amazon order history.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

Can Amazon Go stores take EBT cards (aka food stamps)? I imagine not… even if they could process the payments, how would they enforce the restrictions on what food stamp recipients are allowed to buy?

aianus 7y ago
They could take EBT and a credit/debit card at the same time and put only the eligible products on the EBT.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  Is someone on EBT really going to have a credit card?
  - grandmczeb 7y ago
    Lots of people on EBT have credit cards, it’s not like you need to be in extreme destitution to quality.

mattigames 7y ago

The same thing happened when commercial airplanes started, only the rich could afford tickets at the beginning, later they became affordable, so it's possible something similar well happen with automated stores.

scarface74 7y ago
It didn’t just happen. Government deregulation of airlines made it happen. But people are screaming for just the opposite with stores that don’t accept cash. They want government intervention.

BurningFrog 7y ago

This is a pretty epic Slippery Slope Argument. These stores are now < 0.1% of all stores. Worrying about what might go wrong if/when they're 90% seems very premature.

chroem- 7y ago
Ideally you want to tackle societal problems before they become intractable. See also: the mess that ad tracking analytics has grown into.
wmeredith 7y ago
I agree. As niche as these are ... who cares? I mean Ferrari dealerships are classist too, but there are other ways to get around.

beatgammit 7y ago

Like with most things, poor people make up a bit enough portion of the population that stores will always cater to them. Also, plenty of people value their privacy more than convenience, and those people won't shop at these Amazon stores. Just look at Amazon.com vs Walmart, Walmart is still in business, even though running a brick and mortar store is more expensive than an online store.

Retric 7y ago
Online is not always a net gain for the retailer. For something like 24 packs of water at Walmart it’s simpler to ship several pallets to one location and have people so last mile delivery to their house than to ship it directly to them. It’s largely shoplifting and floorspace that’s in online stores favor, but that’s only part of the equation.
- flo123456 7y ago
  If only there was a good system to deliver water directly to your house.
  - Retric 7y ago
    The same applies to mulch, rock salt, or gasoline etc.

bahmboo 7y ago

You can enter without a phone and pay for items with cash. I found this information on the internet. But feel free to have a 20 deep discussion about it.

jaredsohn 7y ago
not at all locations
kibibyte 7y ago
As far as I know, they take cash because local governments are banning cashless stores.

Akababa 7y ago

I think the answer is not to hold back progress, but to address the pain points as they arise. As for the specific concerns of going "cashless", there are many countries with lower standard of living (Venezuela, China) than the US but near-ubiquitous cellphone payments, so I don't see this as a difficult problem to solve.

privateSFacct 7y ago
zimbabwe is going bust - super high inflation, but ecocash (a mobile money platform) is THE way folks pay. Part of this is security - walking around with lots of cash / keeping it at home (which may be a shared room) is just not workable.

all_blue_chucks 7y ago

Amazon accounts are free. Surely you must complain much more vocally about Costco, Sam's Club, and other retailers that literally charge you money for the rights to shop there, right?

aaronbrethorst 7y ago
Amazon Go stores are located in very dense urban areas and—if successful—will drive out the 7-11s and other convenience stores in the area that accept cash. Costco, Sam's Club, and other similar 'big box' stores are usually located in less-dense areas and are not competing directly with 7-11s or other convenience stores.
- all_blue_chucks 7y ago
  So you're saying a person needs to be wealthy enough buy a car AND a membership to shop there?
  - aaronbrethorst 7y ago
    I like the way that you’re moving the goalposts and trying to throw me off balance with this argument. Hope you have a great night.
StuffedParrot 7y ago
....whataboutism....

grandmczeb 7y ago

> smart phone It’s not hard to get a cheap smartphone (something like 60-80% of homeless people own a smartphone based on a quick google) and if you qualify for SNAP, you can almost certainly get a free smartphone through the lifeline program. > data service Amazon Go stores have free WiFi. > credit card Edit: Originally stated you can use gift card credit, but that’s incorrect. You can get a secured card with no credit check though. > amazon account Free and obviously easy to get if you have access to the internet, which virtually everyone does through a public library.

scarface74 7y ago

Just for reference, 81% of Americans have smart phones. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/02/05/smartphone-ownership-is-growing-rapidly-around-the-world-but-not-always-equally/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/02/05/smartphone-own... 75% of Americans have credit cards. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/ownership-statistics.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/ownership-stati... 10% of Americans use only cash. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-statistics-1276.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
topkai22 7y ago
But for perspective, 10% is a large portion of the population. As a population subgroup, Asian Americans only account for 7% of the US population.
- scarface74 7y ago
  My purpose wasn’t to argue either way, I just wanted to add numbers to the discussions.
ohbleek 7y ago
Just for more clarity then: 62.7 million Americans don’t have smart phones 82.5 million Americans don’t have credit cards 33 million Americans use only cash Another way to look at it The equivalent of the entire population of the United Kingdom not having smart phones The entire population of Germany not having credit cards Nearly the entire population of Canada using only cash
- scarface74 7y ago
  Are you basing that calculation on the total population or just adults?

StuffedParrot 7y ago

Wait, they don’t accept cash? How is that legal?

mantap 7y ago
It's usually only obligatory to accept cash for settling a debt, e.g. if you have eaten in a restaurant, the restaurant is obliged to accept cash, because you can hardly give back the food you already ate (at least in the same form). But if you are at McDonalds, there's no obligation for them to accept cash because you pay upfront.

seltzered_ 7y ago

I haven't stepped into a Amazon Go store yet, but the tradeoffs in requiring an account/app have been on my mind after experiencing the new Seattle Target in Ballard. It's entirely self-checkout (with an assistant or two there), but the dystopian part during the self-checkout process is an LCD monitor and camera right above you showing your face with "RECORDING IN PROGRESS" above. The Amazon Go convenience store at 920 5th Avenue (looking from the outside) felt a bit sad in their dining setup - it's a tiny bar that seemed designed for quick, alone consumption. I'm guessing most folks going there grab a lunch then go back to their office to eat. (image: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Go/@47.6063189,-122.331131,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM-tChpZh5n6ct5vpOKkGqY3lylwxj2J_rFMNGw!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM-tChpZh5n6ct5vpOKkGqY3lylwxj2J_rFMNGw%3Dw203-h135-k-no!7i5760!8i3840!4m8!1m2!2m1!1samazon+go!3m4!1s0x0:0x50ced0dc2ff24214!8m2!3d47.6063186!4d-122.3311302?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Go/@47.6063189,-122... )

daseiner1 7y ago

Given the makeup and general behavior of the Seattle population you describe, I’m quite confident deterring them from visiting was absolutely intentional by Amazon

faissaloo 7y ago

>credit card Is this to the exclusion of debit cards?

esotericn 7y ago

Aren't supermarkets in the US already subdivided anyway? In the UK we have at least three tiers of supermarket. You're not going to see the riff raff in Waitrose because they can't afford it. "Above" that you have more esoteric health shops. You might see middle-class folk who are cost-conscious (waves) in the low end supermarkets. Pound shops and discount retailers tend to have a specific style - music, decor etc - that reinforce the fact that they're 'poor people stores'. Sure, theoretically you could go and buy your groceries in the expensive stores if you're skint, but in practice no-one actually does that.