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I find it a bit odd that Doctorow talks about the technology of oppression yet lately he's been using his own substantial voice to claim people who don't think

I find it a bit odd that Doctorow talks about the technology of oppression yet lately he's been using his own substantial voice to claim people who don't think Epstein killed himself are "conspiracy theorists": https://boingboing.net/2019/08/13/malice-vs-incompetence.html https://boingboing.net/2019/08/13/malice-vs-incompetence.htm... From his article: > The point isn't that it's inconceivable that Epstein died as the result of a conspiracy, but the conspiracy theories that say that it has to be a setup because it's so implausible that prison authorities would be so totally useless are thoroughly disconnected from reality. That's a complete strawman of what people are saying. No one thinks it's inconceivable that the prison system is incompetent. They do think the highest profile prisoner on the planet with ties to the most powerful people on the planet killing himself in a prison that hasn't had a suicide in 21 years looks like a conspiracy. I agree. That seems very much like siding with the establishment to me.

prepend 7y ago
I’ve really enjoyed Doctorow’s books. My WiFi ssid is parasiteNet. However, he seems a bit too bullshitty nowadays. While I agree with him on OSS/CreativeCommons/etc he seems to be arguing with no one as copyright maximalists have different points. Also his recent Walkaway novel has a long couple of pages about meritocracy is a myth and a tool of the man and it’s all about random access, etc.
swayvil 7y ago
Cory may lately be suffering from echochamber, it tends to take the edge off of one's analyses. I present BOINGBOING.NET as evidence.
criddell 7y ago
He's mostly talking about Ken White's argument. I believe his main point is this: > The state of US prisons is a national shame, and the fact that America incarcerates more people than any other nation in world history in these gulags is a national horror.
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  Yes, and this is an irrelevant, too-clever-by-half woketake which accomplishes nothing but to distract from the fact that Epstein's vast trafficking & blackmail network is still extant, and will be much more difficult to hold accountable in the wake of his death. As Ben Hunt puts it, you don't have to think any one oligarch is responsible to hold them all responsible: https://www.epsilontheory.com/im-a-superstitious-man/ https://www.epsilontheory.com/im-a-superstitious-man/
  - criddell 7y ago
    It's relevant because Epstein's death in prison wasn't extraordinary. I agree with White and Doctorow that the simplest explanation is the most plausible one.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      There hadn’t been a suicide in that prison for 21 years. That one happened at it was Epstein is extraordinary.
      - criddell 7y ago
        First, I was wrong - he wasn't in prison, he was in a jail (MCC). It was the first suicide in 13 years for that facility, not 21. He had just come off suicide watch because he was suicidal. Is it really a surprise that he went through with it?
        malvosenior 7y ago
        Yes, it's a surprise that he ended up dead. Where did you hear 13 years? I've only ever seen 21 years without a suicide at MMC, and that was the only one in 40 years. https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides > Prior to Epstein, the only other reported suicide at MMC occurred 21 years ago, when Philadelphia mobster Louis Turra hanged himself with a bedsheet tied to the window bars of his cell.
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Boingboing has a long history of silencing voices that disagree with them and depersoning those who they have falling out with. Cory might not be as bad as others on that site but he certainly goes along with it.
- swayvil 7y ago
  Srsly. On boingboing dissent is censored. Comment on the censoring is censored. And they're really mean about it too.
iudqnolq 7y ago
The establishment is sometimes right. One should base decisions on their merits, not which "side" they appear to support.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
glennpratt 7y ago
You seem to be confusing censorship and debate.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Dismissing ideas, particularly obviously non-wacky ideas, as "conspiracy theory" is basically censorship. It is a framing of things as "this is not debatable by polite society, so I'm going to mark it thusly and hope you forget about it."
  - glennpratt 7y ago
    No, no it is not.
SECProto 7y ago
> I find it a bit odd that Doctorow talks about the technology of oppression yet lately he's been using his own substantial voice to claim people who don't think Epstein killed himself are "conspiracy theorists" He is completely correct here. I mean, just look up the definition of "conspiracy theory"[1] - It is literally what people claim (Epstein didn't kill himself, i.e. he was killed as a result of some secret or covered up plot). You may be taking offence because "conspiracy theorist" has negative connotations (eg black helicopters, chemtrails, 9/11 inside job, jfk shooter, deep state, illuminati...). But there are conspiracy theories that pen out to be true in the long run - NSA surveillance revelations post-Snowden certainly fulfill many conspiracy theories of a decade ago. All that said, I don't particularly care about Epstein. Your entire post just attacks the messenger for a single view you disagree with, rather than the content at hand. You don't have to agree with a person all the time or none of the time, there are options in between. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy%20theory https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy%20theo...
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  I wouldn't really consider "JFK shooter" a negative connotation, although it's interesting you bring it up given that Kennedy's assassination marked the initial deployment of the term "conspiracy theory" to try and discredit questioning of or alternatives to flimsy official narratives.
AndrewBissell 7y ago
Even Bill Barr says it's reasonable that conspiracy theories have sprung up, given the extraordinary series of "coincidences" which had to occur for Epstein to wind up dead in his cell. Of course, he goes on to promise that he has personally viewed the footage and everything is on the up-and-up. Just don't look too closely at the fact that he worked for the law firm which negotiated Epstein's original sweetheart deal, or that his ex-OSS father plucked Epstein out of obscurity to teach at the Dalton school in Manhattan and also wrote a book about extraterrestrial sex slavers ....
mullingitover 7y ago
People who don't think Epstein killed himself, and promote theories that there was a conspiracy to kill him, are literally the textbook definition of conspiracy theorists. Look, it's fun to think about, but at the end of the day he had very rational reasons to kill himself. He was about to go to prison for the rest of his life and, given that it's the US prison system, could realistically expect to be violently murdered there by his fellow inmates. He signed his last will and testament two days before his death, it's pretty solid evidence that he had an exit plan and was putting his affairs in order.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  Well he certainly didn’t spend the rest of his life in prison the first time he was arrested. His family and legal team (who don’t think he killed himself) say he was confident he’d get away with it. There’s nothing ordinary about his death (or life). There’s been a well documented cover up of his activities by the media and multiple governments going back at least a decade. None of that has been properly addressed. Any negative connotation associated with people who question Epstein’s death isn’t addressing the main issue with his case: powerful people have successfully avoided being prosecuted for child sex trafficking. That’s the issue, not that people don’t believe what they’re being told about Epstein from those documented to be involved with him.
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    His family and legal team have great reasons to promote a conspiracy theory - they stand to inherit his estate. If the boring story that he did the rational thing and committed suicide because he was absolutely guilty (and wasn't getting away with it this time) was true, his estate would be wiped out and they'd get nothing. They have a great deal to gain if they can sow doubt to juries about any element of his story. People volunteering to promote conspiracy theories is an absolute boon to his estate. I don't blame people for being suspicious of his story at first glance, but really looking at the facts, it's most plausible that he believed he wouldn't get away with anything this time and took the easy way out. This is wholly independent of the problem of the wealthy and connected getting the kid glove treatment by the legal system.
Nasrudith 7y ago
It is plauisble to think there was foul play with Epstein but frankly the conspiracy theorist label fits the advocates very well. It is a matter of process and rationality. They assume literally everyone whose name they recognize is a secret pedophile without even a scintilia of unreliable evidencd in deranged guilt by association. That they treat "wanting more conclusive evidence in speculative matters" as "siding against" only proves the point. It fits the "more about emotional validation and confirmation bias than investigation" mold to them.

prepend 7y ago

I’ve really enjoyed Doctorow’s books. My WiFi ssid is parasiteNet. However, he seems a bit too bullshitty nowadays. While I agree with him on OSS/CreativeCommons/etc he seems to be arguing with no one as copyright maximalists have different points. Also his recent Walkaway novel has a long couple of pages about meritocracy is a myth and a tool of the man and it’s all about random access, etc.

swayvil 7y ago

Cory may lately be suffering from echochamber, it tends to take the edge off of one's analyses. I present BOINGBOING.NET as evidence.

criddell 7y ago

He's mostly talking about Ken White's argument. I believe his main point is this: > The state of US prisons is a national shame, and the fact that America incarcerates more people than any other nation in world history in these gulags is a national horror.

AndrewBissell 7y ago
Yes, and this is an irrelevant, too-clever-by-half woketake which accomplishes nothing but to distract from the fact that Epstein's vast trafficking & blackmail network is still extant, and will be much more difficult to hold accountable in the wake of his death. As Ben Hunt puts it, you don't have to think any one oligarch is responsible to hold them all responsible: https://www.epsilontheory.com/im-a-superstitious-man/ https://www.epsilontheory.com/im-a-superstitious-man/
- criddell 7y ago
  It's relevant because Epstein's death in prison wasn't extraordinary. I agree with White and Doctorow that the simplest explanation is the most plausible one.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    There hadn’t been a suicide in that prison for 21 years. That one happened at it was Epstein is extraordinary.
    - criddell 7y ago
      First, I was wrong - he wasn't in prison, he was in a jail (MCC). It was the first suicide in 13 years for that facility, not 21. He had just come off suicide watch because he was suicidal. Is it really a surprise that he went through with it?
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        Yes, it's a surprise that he ended up dead. Where did you hear 13 years? I've only ever seen 21 years without a suicide at MMC, and that was the only one in 40 years. https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides > Prior to Epstein, the only other reported suicide at MMC occurred 21 years ago, when Philadelphia mobster Louis Turra hanged himself with a bedsheet tied to the window bars of his cell.

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

Boingboing has a long history of silencing voices that disagree with them and depersoning those who they have falling out with. Cory might not be as bad as others on that site but he certainly goes along with it.

swayvil 7y ago
Srsly. On boingboing dissent is censored. Comment on the censoring is censored. And they're really mean about it too.

iudqnolq 7y ago

The establishment is sometimes right. One should base decisions on their merits, not which "side" they appear to support.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

glennpratt 7y ago

You seem to be confusing censorship and debate.

scottlocklin 7y ago
Dismissing ideas, particularly obviously non-wacky ideas, as "conspiracy theory" is basically censorship. It is a framing of things as "this is not debatable by polite society, so I'm going to mark it thusly and hope you forget about it."
- glennpratt 7y ago
  No, no it is not.

SECProto 7y ago

> I find it a bit odd that Doctorow talks about the technology of oppression yet lately he's been using his own substantial voice to claim people who don't think Epstein killed himself are "conspiracy theorists" He is completely correct here. I mean, just look up the definition of "conspiracy theory"[1] - It is literally what people claim (Epstein didn't kill himself, i.e. he was killed as a result of some secret or covered up plot). You may be taking offence because "conspiracy theorist" has negative connotations (eg black helicopters, chemtrails, 9/11 inside job, jfk shooter, deep state, illuminati...). But there are conspiracy theories that pen out to be true in the long run - NSA surveillance revelations post-Snowden certainly fulfill many conspiracy theories of a decade ago. All that said, I don't particularly care about Epstein. Your entire post just attacks the messenger for a single view you disagree with, rather than the content at hand. You don't have to agree with a person all the time or none of the time, there are options in between. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy%20theory https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy%20theo...

AndrewBissell 7y ago
I wouldn't really consider "JFK shooter" a negative connotation, although it's interesting you bring it up given that Kennedy's assassination marked the initial deployment of the term "conspiracy theory" to try and discredit questioning of or alternatives to flimsy official narratives.

AndrewBissell 7y ago

Even Bill Barr says it's reasonable that conspiracy theories have sprung up, given the extraordinary series of "coincidences" which had to occur for Epstein to wind up dead in his cell. Of course, he goes on to promise that he has personally viewed the footage and everything is on the up-and-up. Just don't look too closely at the fact that he worked for the law firm which negotiated Epstein's original sweetheart deal, or that his ex-OSS father plucked Epstein out of obscurity to teach at the Dalton school in Manhattan and also wrote a book about extraterrestrial sex slavers ....

mullingitover 7y ago

People who don't think Epstein killed himself, and promote theories that there was a conspiracy to kill him, are literally the textbook definition of conspiracy theorists. Look, it's fun to think about, but at the end of the day he had very rational reasons to kill himself. He was about to go to prison for the rest of his life and, given that it's the US prison system, could realistically expect to be violently murdered there by his fellow inmates. He signed his last will and testament two days before his death, it's pretty solid evidence that he had an exit plan and was putting his affairs in order.

malvosenior 7y ago
Well he certainly didn’t spend the rest of his life in prison the first time he was arrested. His family and legal team (who don’t think he killed himself) say he was confident he’d get away with it. There’s nothing ordinary about his death (or life). There’s been a well documented cover up of his activities by the media and multiple governments going back at least a decade. None of that has been properly addressed. Any negative connotation associated with people who question Epstein’s death isn’t addressing the main issue with his case: powerful people have successfully avoided being prosecuted for child sex trafficking. That’s the issue, not that people don’t believe what they’re being told about Epstein from those documented to be involved with him.
- mullingitover 7y ago
  His family and legal team have great reasons to promote a conspiracy theory - they stand to inherit his estate. If the boring story that he did the rational thing and committed suicide because he was absolutely guilty (and wasn't getting away with it this time) was true, his estate would be wiped out and they'd get nothing. They have a great deal to gain if they can sow doubt to juries about any element of his story. People volunteering to promote conspiracy theories is an absolute boon to his estate. I don't blame people for being suspicious of his story at first glance, but really looking at the facts, it's most plausible that he believed he wouldn't get away with anything this time and took the easy way out. This is wholly independent of the problem of the wealthy and connected getting the kid glove treatment by the legal system.

Nasrudith 7y ago

It is plauisble to think there was foul play with Epstein but frankly the conspiracy theorist label fits the advocates very well. It is a matter of process and rationality. They assume literally everyone whose name they recognize is a secret pedophile without even a scintilia of unreliable evidencd in deranged guilt by association. That they treat "wanting more conclusive evidence in speculative matters" as "siding against" only proves the point. It fits the "more about emotional validation and confirmation bias than investigation" mold to them.