4 ms·

To be fair, Ronaldo is known for exceptional work ethic.

georgespencer 7y ago
That's kinda the point. Work ethic and obsession are not enough: you have to also win a series of lotteries -- genetic and environmental -- to succeed in his field.
- rhlsthrm 7y ago
  Yes, but work ethic and obsession are the absolute baseline you need.
  - malnourish 7y ago
    I think even that point is debatable depending on how you define success. If the definition of success is wealth or notoriety, there are certainly people who achieve it without those traits.
    - icelancer 7y ago
      The fact that people become successful and/or notorious due to luck does not invalidate the fact that work ethic and your efforts play the largest controllable role you have. To focus on pure chance outcomes is unproductive and nonsensical.
  - pmoriarty 7y ago
    I find it sad and disturbing that so many people worship being a workaholic.
    - friedman23 7y ago
      People worship success. Turns out to be better than other hard working people you need to work extremely hard.
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        Being better than other hard working people can also involve simply kicking the ladder from underneath you, playing the social status game or making bets at the edge of the law and shoving that risk onto other people. And sometimes no matter how hard you work, you're one of those people under the rungs.
      - pmoriarty 7y ago
        Success (by which most people mean financial success, fame, or winning in some competition) is certainly worshipped. However, just being "a hard worker" in itself is considered a virtue by many people. I hesitate to call it the Protestant Work Ethic or the Puritan Work Ethic, as it's far from limited to Protestants or Puritans, but that's really what it is. The harder you work, the more virtuous you are considered to be, and working less is considered sinful or lazy (in other words, unvirtuous and blame-worthy).
  - jiux 7y ago
    Those do help. Have you given thought to whether these are the absolute baseline...or actually the consequences of practices more fundamental?
  - philwelch 7y ago
    Most professional athletes aren’t obsessive just because they have a weirdly specific passion for their sport. They’re obsessive because they’re pathologically competitive. There’s stories about eg Michael Jordan buying a ping pong table and obsessively practicing at ping pong because he had a teammate who beat him at ping pong once and he wasn’t able to let it go until he beat the guy in a rematch. Obsession can come from many sources.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > That's kinda the point. Work ethic and obsession are not enough: you have to also win a series of lotteries -- genetic and environmental -- to succeed in his field. Ok, you've heard of Cristiano Ronaldo. Yet, have you heard of Dani? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_(footballer,_born_1976) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_(footballer,_born_1976) Like Ronaldo he was launched int Sporting Clube de Portugal's first team when he played for the club's U17 team. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani didn't had a heart condition. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani had more appearances in his first year in the first team, and was quickly picked by WestHam and Ajax. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani had a notoriously poor work ethics. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani's impressive start was squandered and he went nowhere, he achieved nothing and has since been forgotten. Work ethics is the deciding factor. You may have won the genetic lottery and be a bonafide ubermensch but if your work ethics suck then you'll quickly be surpassed by those lesser talented but more hard working than you.
  - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
    I mostly agree with you but "work ethics" is also partially genetic. It's defined partly by a big five trait called conscientiousness which has a fair percentage of its effects not explainable by the environment or random chance.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
Most top athletes have excellent work ethic but they also have natural ability. No amount of work ethic can compensate for lack of natural ability. You absolutely need that to get to the top.
- ANY_TRUERS_LULW 7y ago
  Depends on the sport. Football, basketball and fighting sports require natural ability. Soccer does not require nearly as much natural athleticism. So since there is less of a genetic filter, players must work that much harder.
chongli 7y ago
I think pg is trying to argue that passionate disinterest is different from work ethic. For a person like Ronaldo, all of the off-field training might be enjoyable. If it is, then is it really work ethic? Or is it just Ronaldo doing what he wants to do and would be doing anyway, if there were no such thing as money?

That's kinda the point. Work ethic and obsession are not enough: you have to also win a series of lotteries -- genetic and environmental -- to succeed in his field.

rhlsthrm 7y ago
Yes, but work ethic and obsession are the absolute baseline you need.
- malnourish 7y ago
  I think even that point is debatable depending on how you define success. If the definition of success is wealth or notoriety, there are certainly people who achieve it without those traits.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    The fact that people become successful and/or notorious due to luck does not invalidate the fact that work ethic and your efforts play the largest controllable role you have. To focus on pure chance outcomes is unproductive and nonsensical.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  I find it sad and disturbing that so many people worship being a workaholic.
  - friedman23 7y ago
    People worship success. Turns out to be better than other hard working people you need to work extremely hard.
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      Being better than other hard working people can also involve simply kicking the ladder from underneath you, playing the social status game or making bets at the edge of the law and shoving that risk onto other people. And sometimes no matter how hard you work, you're one of those people under the rungs.
    - pmoriarty 7y ago
      Success (by which most people mean financial success, fame, or winning in some competition) is certainly worshipped. However, just being "a hard worker" in itself is considered a virtue by many people. I hesitate to call it the Protestant Work Ethic or the Puritan Work Ethic, as it's far from limited to Protestants or Puritans, but that's really what it is. The harder you work, the more virtuous you are considered to be, and working less is considered sinful or lazy (in other words, unvirtuous and blame-worthy).
- jiux 7y ago
  Those do help. Have you given thought to whether these are the absolute baseline...or actually the consequences of practices more fundamental?
- philwelch 7y ago
  Most professional athletes aren’t obsessive just because they have a weirdly specific passion for their sport. They’re obsessive because they’re pathologically competitive. There’s stories about eg Michael Jordan buying a ping pong table and obsessively practicing at ping pong because he had a teammate who beat him at ping pong once and he wasn’t able to let it go until he beat the guy in a rematch. Obsession can come from many sources.
rumanator 7y ago
> That's kinda the point. Work ethic and obsession are not enough: you have to also win a series of lotteries -- genetic and environmental -- to succeed in his field. Ok, you've heard of Cristiano Ronaldo. Yet, have you heard of Dani? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_(footballer,_born_1976) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dani_(footballer,_born_1976) Like Ronaldo he was launched int Sporting Clube de Portugal's first team when he played for the club's U17 team. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani didn't had a heart condition. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani had more appearances in his first year in the first team, and was quickly picked by WestHam and Ajax. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani had a notoriously poor work ethics. Unlike Ronaldo, Dani's impressive start was squandered and he went nowhere, he achieved nothing and has since been forgotten. Work ethics is the deciding factor. You may have won the genetic lottery and be a bonafide ubermensch but if your work ethics suck then you'll quickly be surpassed by those lesser talented but more hard working than you.
- adnzzzzZ 7y ago
  I mostly agree with you but "work ethics" is also partially genetic. It's defined partly by a big five trait called conscientiousness which has a fair percentage of its effects not explainable by the environment or random chance.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

Most top athletes have excellent work ethic but they also have natural ability. No amount of work ethic can compensate for lack of natural ability. You absolutely need that to get to the top.

ANY_TRUERS_LULW 7y ago
Depends on the sport. Football, basketball and fighting sports require natural ability. Soccer does not require nearly as much natural athleticism. So since there is less of a genetic filter, players must work that much harder.

chongli 7y ago

I think pg is trying to argue that passionate disinterest is different from work ethic. For a person like Ronaldo, all of the off-field training might be enjoyable. If it is, then is it really work ethic? Or is it just Ronaldo doing what he wants to do and would be doing anyway, if there were no such thing as money?