4 ms·

His answer is consistent with what Apple has said about iPhones and iCloud in China in the past [1]. The lack of pressure he's talking about is pressure to impl

His answer is consistent with what Apple has said about iPhones and iCloud in China in the past [1]. The lack of pressure he's talking about is pressure to implement backdoors or otherwise compromise the end-to-end encryption in their products. Removing the Taiwan emoji or VPN apps from the App Store is a small price to pay if that's still the case. >Cook said they have never been asked in China by authorities to unlock an iPhone, but added, referring to the U.S., "I have here." >"And we stood up against that, and said we can't do it," he added. "Our privacy commitment is a worldwide one." I should also add that it's a good sign for Apple that China's embassy tweeted this out [2]. I've always wondered if or when China would force them to backdoor the iPhone or iMessage to operate there. But it seems like they've come to some sort of equilibrium where they realize that's an Apple core interest and can't push on it. If they're tweeting it out it means there's some limited propaganda value to them (in the same way that Putin gets some propaganda value by providing Snowden asylum) and it makes it unlikely that they would force Apple on this. Likewise it's also good that Josh Hawley and others are making noise about this [3]. On the surface he's targeting Apple for criticism, but his proposed bill doesn't really affect Apple since only Chinese iCloud data is stored in China, which would comply with his bill [4]. US politicians have mostly ignored this issue until now, it will help Apple by showing the CCP that the US has an interest in this. Perhaps in a trade deal they'll be able to undo the Chinese data localization requirement as well [5]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 [2] https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinUS/status/1197546566216814592 https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinUS/status/119754656621681459... [3] https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1196412815608864771 https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1196412815608864771 [4] https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-11/National-Security-Personal-Data-Protection-Act-Bill-Text.pdf https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-11/Na... [5] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-floats-cloud-concession-to-foreign-tech-firms-in-u-s-trade-talks-11553773127 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-floats-cloud-concession-t...

Medicalidiot 7y ago
How would China gain access to their citizen's phones then? There's no way that they don't have some type of ability to get into any single citizen's phone. I know that they were using exploits via Safari which seemed very sophisticated to monitor Uyghurs en masse.
- Despegar 7y ago
  >How would China gain access to their citizen's phones then? There's no way that they don't have some type of ability to get into any single citizen's phone. Through literally every other part of the stack from the wireless carriers to applications like WeChat. They don't need an iOS backdoor when they have CCP officials at Tencent's offices. Most people use Android and the police just make them install an app on their smartphones, something they can't do on iOS [1]. The way to access an iOS device is with 0days. I used to see plenty of credits on iOS security updates for Chinese researchers, but China seems to have put a stop to that with the goal of hoarding them [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/technology/china-xinjiang-app.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/technology/china-xinjiang... [2] https://www.cyberscoop.com/pwn2own-chinese-researchers-360-technologies-trend-micro/ https://www.cyberscoop.com/pwn2own-chinese-researchers-360-t...
yyyk 7y ago
There's no need for China to officially ask Apple for backdoors when the Party can force citizens and tourists to install their app with full access granted[0], and can get Apple to store the keys in China[1] while working with local Chinese state-owned 'partners'[2] which do the Party's bidding without even needing to go through Apple. [0] https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/07/22/web-cleansing-chinas-xinjiang-residents-forced-install-surveillance-apps-mobile-phones/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/07/22/web-cleansing-chinas-x... https://www.businessinsider.com/china-forces-tourists-install-malware-phone-scanning-app-xianjiang-border-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-forces-tourists-instal... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/24/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/24/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-... [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-moved-to-servers-operated-by-state-owned-telco https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/18/chinese-icloud-da...
- Despegar 7y ago
  The first thing is only possible on Android, not iOS. As far as the iCloud keys, Apple insists that they maintain control of them. And at the end of the day, anyone can just decide to disable iCloud backups and they won't have to worry about it. >Originally, iCloud data was stored on Apple-controlled servers, with the Cupertino company holding the encryption keys. Apple announced a year ago that this would change to comply with new laws in China, and that data for Chinese iCloud accounts would be moved to a server run by Guizhou-Cloud Big Data (GCBD), a company owned by the provincial government. >However, I have spoken to Apple today, who confirmed that it still holds the encryption keys, and states categorically that they have not been made available to either GCBD or China Telecom. https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-china-telecom/ https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-china-tel...
throwaway58764 7y ago
I would bet as countries start to realize how important their data is, there will be more localized iCloud instances. Russia recently passed a law that all gadgets sold in Russia would need Russian developed software. I really wonder how that will affect Apple.
- Despegar 7y ago
  According to this report, that Russian law was targeted at Apple [1]. It also says that Apple has told them they'll leave the market, which is pretty credible because Russia is a small market. This is a Google translation: >According to a profile official, in summer in informal conversations it was said that the main goal of the bill is Apple, which they are trying to oblige the law to install Russian applications on iPhones and iPads. But the iOS operating system that Apple uses does not at all imply the ability to preinstall third-party applications. >At one of the meetings, Apple representatives warned that the introduction of such standards would force the company to "revise its business model in Russia, " Vedomosti wrote in the summer. As of September, the company's position has not changed, the official said. “The company then took this position: we will show you the middle finger, your market is a very small segment of our business, its loss is insignificant,” he says. Perhaps the authors of the project were inspired by the example of China, from where, after the adoption of similar rules, no one left, admits The Bell's interlocutor. But Russia is not China, there are no levers of pressure on Apple, he states. [1] https://thebell.io/zakon-protiv-apple-novye-ogranicheniya-mogut-zastavit-kompaniyu-ujti-iz-rossii/ https://thebell.io/zakon-protiv-apple-novye-ogranicheniya-mo...
  - SrslyJosh 7y ago
    Apple leaving Russia's market is probably an ideal outcome for the Russian government. Forcing out all outside software allows them to ensure that every single device comes from the factory with backdoors preinstalled.
- indemnity 7y ago
  Russia as a market does not matter, so likely it won’t affect Apple at all. GDP less than Italy / Canada, consumers poorer than Chinese.

Medicalidiot 7y ago

How would China gain access to their citizen's phones then? There's no way that they don't have some type of ability to get into any single citizen's phone. I know that they were using exploits via Safari which seemed very sophisticated to monitor Uyghurs en masse.

Despegar 7y ago
>How would China gain access to their citizen's phones then? There's no way that they don't have some type of ability to get into any single citizen's phone. Through literally every other part of the stack from the wireless carriers to applications like WeChat. They don't need an iOS backdoor when they have CCP officials at Tencent's offices. Most people use Android and the police just make them install an app on their smartphones, something they can't do on iOS [1]. The way to access an iOS device is with 0days. I used to see plenty of credits on iOS security updates for Chinese researchers, but China seems to have put a stop to that with the goal of hoarding them [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/technology/china-xinjiang-app.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/technology/china-xinjiang... [2] https://www.cyberscoop.com/pwn2own-chinese-researchers-360-technologies-trend-micro/ https://www.cyberscoop.com/pwn2own-chinese-researchers-360-t...

yyyk 7y ago

There's no need for China to officially ask Apple for backdoors when the Party can force citizens and tourists to install their app with full access granted[0], and can get Apple to store the keys in China[1] while working with local Chinese state-owned 'partners'[2] which do the Party's bidding without even needing to go through Apple. [0] https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/07/22/web-cleansing-chinas-xinjiang-residents-forced-install-surveillance-apps-mobile-phones/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/07/22/web-cleansing-chinas-x... https://www.businessinsider.com/china-forces-tourists-install-malware-phone-scanning-app-xianjiang-border-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-forces-tourists-instal... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/24/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/24/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-... [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-moved-to-servers-operated-by-state-owned-telco https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/18/chinese-icloud-da...

Despegar 7y ago
The first thing is only possible on Android, not iOS. As far as the iCloud keys, Apple insists that they maintain control of them. And at the end of the day, anyone can just decide to disable iCloud backups and they won't have to worry about it. >Originally, iCloud data was stored on Apple-controlled servers, with the Cupertino company holding the encryption keys. Apple announced a year ago that this would change to comply with new laws in China, and that data for Chinese iCloud accounts would be moved to a server run by Guizhou-Cloud Big Data (GCBD), a company owned by the provincial government. >However, I have spoken to Apple today, who confirmed that it still holds the encryption keys, and states categorically that they have not been made available to either GCBD or China Telecom. https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-china-telecom/ https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-china-tel...

throwaway58764 7y ago

I would bet as countries start to realize how important their data is, there will be more localized iCloud instances. Russia recently passed a law that all gadgets sold in Russia would need Russian developed software. I really wonder how that will affect Apple.

Despegar 7y ago
According to this report, that Russian law was targeted at Apple [1]. It also says that Apple has told them they'll leave the market, which is pretty credible because Russia is a small market. This is a Google translation: >According to a profile official, in summer in informal conversations it was said that the main goal of the bill is Apple, which they are trying to oblige the law to install Russian applications on iPhones and iPads. But the iOS operating system that Apple uses does not at all imply the ability to preinstall third-party applications. >At one of the meetings, Apple representatives warned that the introduction of such standards would force the company to "revise its business model in Russia, " Vedomosti wrote in the summer. As of September, the company's position has not changed, the official said. “The company then took this position: we will show you the middle finger, your market is a very small segment of our business, its loss is insignificant,” he says. Perhaps the authors of the project were inspired by the example of China, from where, after the adoption of similar rules, no one left, admits The Bell's interlocutor. But Russia is not China, there are no levers of pressure on Apple, he states. [1] https://thebell.io/zakon-protiv-apple-novye-ogranicheniya-mogut-zastavit-kompaniyu-ujti-iz-rossii/ https://thebell.io/zakon-protiv-apple-novye-ogranicheniya-mo...
- SrslyJosh 7y ago
  Apple leaving Russia's market is probably an ideal outcome for the Russian government. Forcing out all outside software allows them to ensure that every single device comes from the factory with backdoors preinstalled.
indemnity 7y ago
Russia as a market does not matter, so likely it won’t affect Apple at all. GDP less than Italy / Canada, consumers poorer than Chinese.