9 ms·

Could you please elaborate the "coding is not a social activity" or offer a reference. Thank you very much in advance! reply

carl_sandland 7y ago
np. The "Stuff" that surrounds coding is very social (point 1), but the actual activity of writing code is very inward focused and ideally uninterrupted. The idea of FLOW is a very real thing, its very zen: hours just fade away until you look up and everyone has gone to lunch. I'm tilting at the open office windmill and idea that whilst I'm actually coding, I need to interact with others. Being a "Developer" (planning, designing) is very social, however writing the actual code, for me at least, is a very inward activity and suits my quiet personality. The problem here is that non-coders don't understand this and it can cause a lot of friction when working in the usual group office environment. It's a catch 22, people want me to code for them, but then they have a problem with me socially when I'm trying to code ;)
- metters 7y ago
  I agree with that and can also relate to this point (as I experience exactly this in my current project) my colleague already complained about being interrupted many times already. The problem is that the non coding colleagues want to ask just a 'quick question'. Thanks for the quick reply.
- iamsb 7y ago
  What do you think of pair programming and the more extreme nature of it called mob programming. Have you seen either of those two things work well in any context?
  - randomidiot666 7y ago
    Pair programming was never intended to be a full time mode of development. Half an hour once a week (or whenever) is good enough, and can help with mentoring junior developers. But it is really moronic to do that full time.
    - dorfsmay 7y ago
      "intended"? By who? Based on what? I worked at companies that had full time pairing and it worked well. When you tried full time pairing, what were the issues you observed that made you conclude it was "moronic"
      - randomidiot666 7y ago
        .. by the people who started it and popularized it. I have never tried it full time because it's obviously patently moronic to do it that way, and would destroy all enjoyment of the job. I have worked with highly talented developers and can not recall any one of them wanting to pair full time. I have received huge benefits from occasional pair programming with senior developers in my less senior days. However, I need to try full time pair programming as much as I need to try jumping into a fire to verify that it's not a smart idea. If my employer forced me to do that I would quit on the spot.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - dmarinoc 7y ago
    I’ve only seen mob-programming to be adopted by teams of junior-slackers, but YMMV
  - carl_sandland 7y ago
    Some thoughts; 1. At some point in the 90s there was an "Extreme Programming" movement, or XP as it were. I distinctly remember the dogma built up around this, to the point where I started being forced to do pair programming in a formal sense, all day. Thankfully I just quit. I guess I prefer my coding to be less than extreme. 2. As others have mentioned, short term pair programming (never works >2 imo) is an excellent way of transferring knowledge (a model) to someone else, or to make progress on complex problems when you are stuck (the rubber duck effect is real). 3. I'm afraid I really must be getting old as I've never heard of "mob programming", and to be frank I've spent the last hours being horrified that such an idea exists. I guess in a way code reviews can be like that sometimes. lol.
    - rightbyte 7y ago
      I've done non-forced pair programming for suitable tasks that were really math heavy in a controll algorithm where I essentially double checked the math. Worked that time really well but always doing it would make me hate my job.
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      Yeah but just about nowhere did XP properly, though many places claimed to in the late 90s, early 00s whenever it was the extreme hotness. It was one of those peculiar cults everyone talked up, but just about no one understood or had even read the book. One place I was at did everything, including onsite customer etc. In context pair programming managed to stay enjoyable for the entire time and they didn't seem to have high turnover. It actually kept on feeling more productive. I was there around a year (contract). I never encountered it again so can't comment if that was sheer luck or the people (or project) they happened to have... There was a spell when every job ad seemed to want to claim it, but basically picked pair programming and two to five of the bullets and handwaved or ignored the rest. Or merged it with plenty of old school waterfall project management, Gantt charts, random bits of UML or some other tangent. I guess I'm not surprised so many ended up hating everything around XP and pair programming as it took many forms. It made for a few surreal interviews after that one encounter of an employer who'd adopted it fully and properly.
  - bostik 7y ago
    In my experience pair programming works wonderfully for short, intense and complex problem solving scenarios. The extra pair of eyes and a second brain gnawing at a nasty problem is a good way to augment each other's capabilities. In fact, I dare say that pair debugging is where the practice really shines. Doing it all the time, for all tasks? That won't fly.
- jbverschoor 7y ago
  Pair programming works if used as a mentorship. You’ll need to have a senior dev and a less experienced one. But I guess this is but the original intent of pair programming
- peruvian 7y ago
  This is off-topic, but I have never experienced the "flow" you mention but I've had a decent career so far. I'm not the best or anything but I've done well in terms of promotions or projects shipped. I've never lost track of time coding like you say - I stop at 12:30pm for lunch and then at 5:00pm to go home. I've always wondered if I am doing something wrong or maybe I just like programming enough as a job.
  - chownie 7y ago
    Being able to enter that state isn't reliable even for people who do it often. I've never been able to do it at work, it happens somewhat often when I'm doing home projects if my environment is suitably quiet. I've found that I experience a kind of embarrassed reluctance to fully commit all my attention to something while I'm at work surrounded by people, that prevents it for me.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      I get it reasonably often when I'm coding my projects late at night, when there's nobody there to bother me. The downside is that it messes with my sleep, since I'll start at midnight, write some code, think "okay I need to go to bed by 1 because I haven't been sleeping well" and I look and it's 5 am.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    I agree, I've heard of 'the flow' but it's never happened to me. Perhaps related, perhaps not, I never 'sink in' to films I'm watching. My old GF seemed to be able to, but I'm always on the outside looking in, never immersed. I wonder if that's linked.
    - peruvian 7y ago
      I’m the person you replied to - I’m a big film fan but I have the same “issue”. The only time I can get immersed is at a movie theater and even then it’s rare (last time I was immersed it was with Parasite). But again, I enjoy the film and am able to remember all of it so not sure if it’s a problem.

carl_sandland 7y ago

np. The "Stuff" that surrounds coding is very social (point 1), but the actual activity of writing code is very inward focused and ideally uninterrupted. The idea of FLOW is a very real thing, its very zen: hours just fade away until you look up and everyone has gone to lunch. I'm tilting at the open office windmill and idea that whilst I'm actually coding, I need to interact with others. Being a "Developer" (planning, designing) is very social, however writing the actual code, for me at least, is a very inward activity and suits my quiet personality. The problem here is that non-coders don't understand this and it can cause a lot of friction when working in the usual group office environment. It's a catch 22, people want me to code for them, but then they have a problem with me socially when I'm trying to code ;)

metters 7y ago
I agree with that and can also relate to this point (as I experience exactly this in my current project) my colleague already complained about being interrupted many times already. The problem is that the non coding colleagues want to ask just a 'quick question'. Thanks for the quick reply.
iamsb 7y ago
What do you think of pair programming and the more extreme nature of it called mob programming. Have you seen either of those two things work well in any context?
- randomidiot666 7y ago
  Pair programming was never intended to be a full time mode of development. Half an hour once a week (or whenever) is good enough, and can help with mentoring junior developers. But it is really moronic to do that full time.
  - dorfsmay 7y ago
    "intended"? By who? Based on what? I worked at companies that had full time pairing and it worked well. When you tried full time pairing, what were the issues you observed that made you conclude it was "moronic"
    - randomidiot666 7y ago
      .. by the people who started it and popularized it. I have never tried it full time because it's obviously patently moronic to do it that way, and would destroy all enjoyment of the job. I have worked with highly talented developers and can not recall any one of them wanting to pair full time. I have received huge benefits from occasional pair programming with senior developers in my less senior days. However, I need to try full time pair programming as much as I need to try jumping into a fire to verify that it's not a smart idea. If my employer forced me to do that I would quit on the spot.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- dmarinoc 7y ago
  I’ve only seen mob-programming to be adopted by teams of junior-slackers, but YMMV
- carl_sandland 7y ago
  Some thoughts; 1. At some point in the 90s there was an "Extreme Programming" movement, or XP as it were. I distinctly remember the dogma built up around this, to the point where I started being forced to do pair programming in a formal sense, all day. Thankfully I just quit. I guess I prefer my coding to be less than extreme. 2. As others have mentioned, short term pair programming (never works >2 imo) is an excellent way of transferring knowledge (a model) to someone else, or to make progress on complex problems when you are stuck (the rubber duck effect is real). 3. I'm afraid I really must be getting old as I've never heard of "mob programming", and to be frank I've spent the last hours being horrified that such an idea exists. I guess in a way code reviews can be like that sometimes. lol.
  - rightbyte 7y ago
    I've done non-forced pair programming for suitable tasks that were really math heavy in a controll algorithm where I essentially double checked the math. Worked that time really well but always doing it would make me hate my job.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Yeah but just about nowhere did XP properly, though many places claimed to in the late 90s, early 00s whenever it was the extreme hotness. It was one of those peculiar cults everyone talked up, but just about no one understood or had even read the book. One place I was at did everything, including onsite customer etc. In context pair programming managed to stay enjoyable for the entire time and they didn't seem to have high turnover. It actually kept on feeling more productive. I was there around a year (contract). I never encountered it again so can't comment if that was sheer luck or the people (or project) they happened to have... There was a spell when every job ad seemed to want to claim it, but basically picked pair programming and two to five of the bullets and handwaved or ignored the rest. Or merged it with plenty of old school waterfall project management, Gantt charts, random bits of UML or some other tangent. I guess I'm not surprised so many ended up hating everything around XP and pair programming as it took many forms. It made for a few surreal interviews after that one encounter of an employer who'd adopted it fully and properly.
- bostik 7y ago
  In my experience pair programming works wonderfully for short, intense and complex problem solving scenarios. The extra pair of eyes and a second brain gnawing at a nasty problem is a good way to augment each other's capabilities. In fact, I dare say that pair debugging is where the practice really shines. Doing it all the time, for all tasks? That won't fly.
jbverschoor 7y ago
Pair programming works if used as a mentorship. You’ll need to have a senior dev and a less experienced one. But I guess this is but the original intent of pair programming
peruvian 7y ago
This is off-topic, but I have never experienced the "flow" you mention but I've had a decent career so far. I'm not the best or anything but I've done well in terms of promotions or projects shipped. I've never lost track of time coding like you say - I stop at 12:30pm for lunch and then at 5:00pm to go home. I've always wondered if I am doing something wrong or maybe I just like programming enough as a job.
- chownie 7y ago
  Being able to enter that state isn't reliable even for people who do it often. I've never been able to do it at work, it happens somewhat often when I'm doing home projects if my environment is suitably quiet. I've found that I experience a kind of embarrassed reluctance to fully commit all my attention to something while I'm at work surrounded by people, that prevents it for me.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    I get it reasonably often when I'm coding my projects late at night, when there's nobody there to bother me. The downside is that it messes with my sleep, since I'll start at midnight, write some code, think "okay I need to go to bed by 1 because I haven't been sleeping well" and I look and it's 5 am.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  I agree, I've heard of 'the flow' but it's never happened to me. Perhaps related, perhaps not, I never 'sink in' to films I'm watching. My old GF seemed to be able to, but I'm always on the outside looking in, never immersed. I wonder if that's linked.
  - peruvian 7y ago
    I’m the person you replied to - I’m a big film fan but I have the same “issue”. The only time I can get immersed is at a movie theater and even then it’s rare (last time I was immersed it was with Parasite). But again, I enjoy the film and am able to remember all of it so not sure if it’s a problem.