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I keep seeing articles showing up on debugging network issues like DNS or something else. Makes me wonder how much engineering effort we are putting in to fight

I keep seeing articles showing up on debugging network issues like DNS or something else. Makes me wonder how much engineering effort we are putting in to fight the tool. Have these people considered/investigated other tools like Nomad (hashi corp)? How much value Kube actually adds vs these issue?

sytelus 7y ago
Kubernetes is CORBA of this generation. It will float around because of few heavyweights preaching it and suckers falling for it. Eventually it will die like all overly-complex, hideously-designed and poorly-implemented things do. You can save your time by just ignoring this nonsense.
- loopz 7y ago
  Remembering CORBA and glad it never took off: What if Kubernetes is the java of this generation? Java is not yet dying, and for better or worse, do solve organizational problems around code. Kubernetes is likewise becoming a business standard. Look into VMWare, IBM/RedHat and remote service providers offering it as standard. One can write huge books on java, both on the strengths and solutions, but also the weaknesses. For smaller companies and projects, it would probably be overkill to start with the java/JVM monolith, even today. Though java is the reason I jumped off the dev bandwagon, I can defend the language in hindsight, because it do solve several huge "unnecessary" problems other languages/runtimes simply don't address. The operational costs having been hidden away with expensive hardware upgrades. In hindsight, I don't see huge obstacles that the same may be said about Kubernetes in the future. These low-level kinks will be worked out, and provide for the masses what they can't or won't achieve alone. The masses don't need Google-scale, but if they can get the 15-year old mature distributed systems tech almost for free, there are several reasons to standardize.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  I think React.js is the CORBA of this generation. k8's might be too but I think the fact that containers are so portable it will be easy to migrate your application away from k8s if you want and to a new infrastructure. That's kind of the beauty of it.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > Kubernetes is CORBA of this generation. It will float around because of few heavyweights preaching it and suckers falling for it. This sort of assertion is oblivious to the fact that Kubernetes does solve a few basic problems that no other orchestration service solves, at least as easily. I'm referring to problems like cluster autoscaling. Until there's any alternative to Kubernetes that not only offers these features but it is also supported by service providers like AWS or Azure or GCP then Kubernetes is not a fad but the default tool of the trade.
  - pojzon 7y ago
    > I'm referring to problems like cluster autoscaling. When it comes to autoscaling, kubernetes has two levels of scaling - pods and nodes. This introduces pros and cons in itself. Either your resources are under-utilized and you waste money or you scale as fast as regular scaling of your cloud provider. I'll just point out that for example AWS ASG TargetTracking scaling policy blasts default Kubernetes HPA/CA scaling out of the water. It's more conservative while HPA is highly susceptible to pod thrashing. Two-level based scaling introduces a lot of complexity, it gives more flexibility/power to the user, but only if that user has enough experience to not fall into multiple pitfalls it also creates(scaling). I'm confident enough to say that ANY corporation that is not familiar with Kubernetes - decides to introduce it to it's technology stack will most likely shoot itself in the foot - also increasing the cost of infrastructure for their platform. I've seen it too many times. Which then results in this corpo to hire some consultant that looks at what abomination their devops created to shake head and spend few months fixing their incompetence. Doing Kubernetes the right way is hard.
    - tra3 7y ago
      Can you recommend some alternatives to k8s that are cloud provider agnostic? I have 3 docker compose nodes that I manage manually. I will shortly need another one. Seems like time for an orchestrator. If I squint swarm is a reasonable solution but k8s hysteria is sweeping me along..
      - pojzon 7y ago
- vandal_at_your 7y ago
  I'm torn on this opinion. From 20 years of experience I can see where kubernetes fails and seems absurd (internally routed and natted networks with terrifying complexity and design, obtuse declarations in yml/json that hide more ugly complexity). Kubernetes tries to do too much for too many. OTOH, there are some really nice infrastructure simplifications which can be achieved using k8s that didn't exist previously. Like any tool it can be used in a sane way or made into monstrosity.
- gerbilly 7y ago
  > Kubernetes is CORBA of this generation. I like to compare Kubernetes to websphere.
larve 7y ago
The issue was not due to kubernetes, and would have appeared with other containerization technology as well.
- alecco 7y ago
  The problem was due to cadvisor, a Google project for monitoring container resource usage https://github.com/google/cadvisor https://github.com/google/cadvisor I think GP's point stands. I'd trust more Hashicorp than Google to help out on problems like these. They have a financial incentive to help you out and you can pay for support. Google does it just for corporate image and are known for terrible technical support for anything outside advertising customers.
chucky_z 7y ago
I work somewhere that has one of the worlds largest Nomad deployments. It's easy to manage, and since 0.9.5 release they have resolved most of my issues. Simply adding Traefik/Fabio gets you a lot of benefit as well. We run it across multiple distributions as well and it "just works," which is not something I experienced with Kubernetes. It also works on Windows if you need that.

sytelus 7y ago

Kubernetes is CORBA of this generation. It will float around because of few heavyweights preaching it and suckers falling for it. Eventually it will die like all overly-complex, hideously-designed and poorly-implemented things do. You can save your time by just ignoring this nonsense.

loopz 7y ago
Remembering CORBA and glad it never took off: What if Kubernetes is the java of this generation? Java is not yet dying, and for better or worse, do solve organizational problems around code. Kubernetes is likewise becoming a business standard. Look into VMWare, IBM/RedHat and remote service providers offering it as standard. One can write huge books on java, both on the strengths and solutions, but also the weaknesses. For smaller companies and projects, it would probably be overkill to start with the java/JVM monolith, even today. Though java is the reason I jumped off the dev bandwagon, I can defend the language in hindsight, because it do solve several huge "unnecessary" problems other languages/runtimes simply don't address. The operational costs having been hidden away with expensive hardware upgrades. In hindsight, I don't see huge obstacles that the same may be said about Kubernetes in the future. These low-level kinks will be worked out, and provide for the masses what they can't or won't achieve alone. The masses don't need Google-scale, but if they can get the 15-year old mature distributed systems tech almost for free, there are several reasons to standardize.
nickthemagicman 7y ago
I think React.js is the CORBA of this generation. k8's might be too but I think the fact that containers are so portable it will be easy to migrate your application away from k8s if you want and to a new infrastructure. That's kind of the beauty of it.
rumanator 7y ago
> Kubernetes is CORBA of this generation. It will float around because of few heavyweights preaching it and suckers falling for it. This sort of assertion is oblivious to the fact that Kubernetes does solve a few basic problems that no other orchestration service solves, at least as easily. I'm referring to problems like cluster autoscaling. Until there's any alternative to Kubernetes that not only offers these features but it is also supported by service providers like AWS or Azure or GCP then Kubernetes is not a fad but the default tool of the trade.
- pojzon 7y ago
  > I'm referring to problems like cluster autoscaling. When it comes to autoscaling, kubernetes has two levels of scaling - pods and nodes. This introduces pros and cons in itself. Either your resources are under-utilized and you waste money or you scale as fast as regular scaling of your cloud provider. I'll just point out that for example AWS ASG TargetTracking scaling policy blasts default Kubernetes HPA/CA scaling out of the water. It's more conservative while HPA is highly susceptible to pod thrashing. Two-level based scaling introduces a lot of complexity, it gives more flexibility/power to the user, but only if that user has enough experience to not fall into multiple pitfalls it also creates(scaling). I'm confident enough to say that ANY corporation that is not familiar with Kubernetes - decides to introduce it to it's technology stack will most likely shoot itself in the foot - also increasing the cost of infrastructure for their platform. I've seen it too many times. Which then results in this corpo to hire some consultant that looks at what abomination their devops created to shake head and spend few months fixing their incompetence. Doing Kubernetes the right way is hard.
  - tra3 7y ago
    Can you recommend some alternatives to k8s that are cloud provider agnostic? I have 3 docker compose nodes that I manage manually. I will shortly need another one. Seems like time for an orchestrator. If I squint swarm is a reasonable solution but k8s hysteria is sweeping me along..
    - pojzon 7y ago
vandal_at_your 7y ago
I'm torn on this opinion. From 20 years of experience I can see where kubernetes fails and seems absurd (internally routed and natted networks with terrifying complexity and design, obtuse declarations in yml/json that hide more ugly complexity). Kubernetes tries to do too much for too many. OTOH, there are some really nice infrastructure simplifications which can be achieved using k8s that didn't exist previously. Like any tool it can be used in a sane way or made into monstrosity.
gerbilly 7y ago
> Kubernetes is CORBA of this generation. I like to compare Kubernetes to websphere.

larve 7y ago

The issue was not due to kubernetes, and would have appeared with other containerization technology as well.

alecco 7y ago
The problem was due to cadvisor, a Google project for monitoring container resource usage https://github.com/google/cadvisor https://github.com/google/cadvisor I think GP's point stands. I'd trust more Hashicorp than Google to help out on problems like these. They have a financial incentive to help you out and you can pay for support. Google does it just for corporate image and are known for terrible technical support for anything outside advertising customers.

chucky_z 7y ago

I work somewhere that has one of the worlds largest Nomad deployments. It's easy to manage, and since 0.9.5 release they have resolved most of my issues. Simply adding Traefik/Fabio gets you a lot of benefit as well. We run it across multiple distributions as well and it "just works," which is not something I experienced with Kubernetes. It also works on Windows if you need that.