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The Tesla Cybertruck and this are built by people who don't drive pickups and don't know why people really drive pickups. $125k and can only tow half of what a

The Tesla Cybertruck and this are built by people who don't drive pickups and don't know why people really drive pickups. $125k and can only tow half of what a $30k F-150 can? For real? Half tons by the 2021 model year will be pushing 15,000 lbs. towing capacity. The last 5 years have seen almost a 50% increase. The market has responded really well. People want a half ton (ride characteristics and price) that can tow like a 3/4 ton.

unethical_ban 7y ago
No one who doesn't tow, actually gives a shit about towing capacity. With gas engines, towing = torque = power = horsepower = acceleration in the ads. The casual F-150 driver who throws some bikes or a grass pallet in the back doesn't need 15,000 lbs of towing. They like that the truck moves quickly and can haul their 3,500 lb boat. I think the price/performance of the Tesla kicks the shit out of this vehicle, but there are markets for most things.
- Aloha 7y ago
  I think the CyberTrunk will prove expensive to build, and on a very practical level not a very good trunk. I'm trying to figure out who exactly the cybertruck is for - it reminds me of the Pontiac Aztek.
  - unethical_ban 7y ago
    It is for people who want * a bed to carry bikes and coolers and bulky shit * the acceleration of a sports car * the ability to go over a curb without messing up the vehicle It is just a bit too expensive for me (I spent $25k on a car six years ago and I plan to hold on to it for another 4) but if I were in the market for a $40-50k truck, I would look at this and the Ram offroad similarly.
  - danans 7y ago
    > I'm trying to figure out who exactly the cybertruck is for It's for the same people who buy most pickups and SUVs now - i.e. not tradespeople or people on farms. Instead most of these will spend their time sitting in gridlocked traffic on the way to and from the office or shopping mall in places like Dallas, Silicon Valley, New Jersey. Pickup trucks are very versatile vehicles, and we live in a society where people like to carry lots of stuff with them, whether or not they truly need to. A few weekends a year, the cargo space will be filled with gear to go glamping or skiing (hence the glamping scene on the cybertruck website), or other upper middle class pursuit, but more frequently visiting a winery or other rural tourist attraction. A few other weekends, it will carry bags of mulch from the garden center, or the kids' bikes. I'm not mocking those use cases. Minus the gridlock traffic to work (I'm lucky - I take a train), that pretty much describes what my family uses our small SUV for now.
windexh8er 7y ago
If you tow that much with a half ton it's not ideal (or even smart), because even though it can tow that much it's not particularly good at it. I own a vehicle that can tow 11,000lbs in a half ton format and it's nothing when compared to towing with a similar model 3/4 ton variant. 1/2 ton trucks are designed for the occasional tow of recreational vehicles and light duty trailers. I would never tow anything over 10k lbs even though my vehicle was rated at it. A half ton towing 6-7k lbs is a heavy load and it's getting a bit ridiculous that auto manufacturers are putting ideas in people's heads that 1/2 ton trucks are direct replacements for a 3/4 or full ton vehicle. Suspension, transmission and drivetrain in a half ton are designed first and foremost for comfort these days. They are not full time tow vehicles and they don't tow like 3/4 ton trucks. At some point the NHTSA is going to need to step in and put limits on what 1/2 tons are limited to towing because it's becoming dangerous. For those who don't know the rating is mostly the GVWR of the truck. In simple terms that means the GVWR of a 3/4 ton truck is 1.5x that of a 1/2 ton truck. That is a huge difference and for those who have done a lot of towing in their lives it's night and day in terms of tow performance all around. Acceleration, braking, sway control, visibility, handling under load, etc.
- sunstone 7y ago
  All true, though the electric trucks with a much lower center of mass and the evenly distributed weight of the battery will improve on this somewhat.
  - windexh8er 7y ago
    The Cyber Truck is 1000-1500lbs heavier than an F150 (depending on models/options). Weight is a huge factor in towing as you need a heavier tow vehicle as your tow weight increases, otherwise you lose handling characteristics when said trailer starts to push and pull on the tow vehicle through normal (and abnormal) driving circumstances. The added weight of the Cyber Truck will actually help it in terms of stability during towing and, in many cases, it will likely tow better than most half ton trucks currently on the market. I'm curious to see how it plays out in reality. And your points help as well - since trucks are naturally higher CG vehicles the batteries are also going to be a competitive advantage in making it more nimble all around. I'd happily trade my current tow vehicle for something that can do 500 miles towing 6k lbs. That would cover 95% of my use cases I have a tow vehicle for in the first place.
chrisseaton 7y ago
> The Tesla Cybertruck and this are built by people who don't drive pickups and don't know why people really drive pickups. $125k and can only tow half of what a $30k F-150 can? For real? Why do you think towing is so critical? The point of a pickup is that the load carrying is integral - that's what the bed in the back is for. If you're towing you don't need a pickup.
- mattmaroon 7y ago
  Because I have watched the big 3 wage a towing capacity war over the last five years and buyers have really responded. Market shares have grown and shrunk in lockstep with towing capacity. It's perhaps not rational. Only 25% of pickup owners tow more than once a year. But, people buy sports cars based on 0-60 times they'll never hit more than once or twice when they first get the car. People don't buy a Porsche because they drive at 250 mph all the time, they buy it because it can even though they never do, and I think towing capacity is similar for pickups.

unethical_ban 7y ago

No one who doesn't tow, actually gives a shit about towing capacity. With gas engines, towing = torque = power = horsepower = acceleration in the ads. The casual F-150 driver who throws some bikes or a grass pallet in the back doesn't need 15,000 lbs of towing. They like that the truck moves quickly and can haul their 3,500 lb boat. I think the price/performance of the Tesla kicks the shit out of this vehicle, but there are markets for most things.

Aloha 7y ago
I think the CyberTrunk will prove expensive to build, and on a very practical level not a very good trunk. I'm trying to figure out who exactly the cybertruck is for - it reminds me of the Pontiac Aztek.
- unethical_ban 7y ago
  It is for people who want * a bed to carry bikes and coolers and bulky shit * the acceleration of a sports car * the ability to go over a curb without messing up the vehicle It is just a bit too expensive for me (I spent $25k on a car six years ago and I plan to hold on to it for another 4) but if I were in the market for a $40-50k truck, I would look at this and the Ram offroad similarly.
- danans 7y ago
  > I'm trying to figure out who exactly the cybertruck is for It's for the same people who buy most pickups and SUVs now - i.e. not tradespeople or people on farms. Instead most of these will spend their time sitting in gridlocked traffic on the way to and from the office or shopping mall in places like Dallas, Silicon Valley, New Jersey. Pickup trucks are very versatile vehicles, and we live in a society where people like to carry lots of stuff with them, whether or not they truly need to. A few weekends a year, the cargo space will be filled with gear to go glamping or skiing (hence the glamping scene on the cybertruck website), or other upper middle class pursuit, but more frequently visiting a winery or other rural tourist attraction. A few other weekends, it will carry bags of mulch from the garden center, or the kids' bikes. I'm not mocking those use cases. Minus the gridlock traffic to work (I'm lucky - I take a train), that pretty much describes what my family uses our small SUV for now.

windexh8er 7y ago

If you tow that much with a half ton it's not ideal (or even smart), because even though it can tow that much it's not particularly good at it. I own a vehicle that can tow 11,000lbs in a half ton format and it's nothing when compared to towing with a similar model 3/4 ton variant. 1/2 ton trucks are designed for the occasional tow of recreational vehicles and light duty trailers. I would never tow anything over 10k lbs even though my vehicle was rated at it. A half ton towing 6-7k lbs is a heavy load and it's getting a bit ridiculous that auto manufacturers are putting ideas in people's heads that 1/2 ton trucks are direct replacements for a 3/4 or full ton vehicle. Suspension, transmission and drivetrain in a half ton are designed first and foremost for comfort these days. They are not full time tow vehicles and they don't tow like 3/4 ton trucks. At some point the NHTSA is going to need to step in and put limits on what 1/2 tons are limited to towing because it's becoming dangerous. For those who don't know the rating is mostly the GVWR of the truck. In simple terms that means the GVWR of a 3/4 ton truck is 1.5x that of a 1/2 ton truck. That is a huge difference and for those who have done a lot of towing in their lives it's night and day in terms of tow performance all around. Acceleration, braking, sway control, visibility, handling under load, etc.

sunstone 7y ago
All true, though the electric trucks with a much lower center of mass and the evenly distributed weight of the battery will improve on this somewhat.
- windexh8er 7y ago
  The Cyber Truck is 1000-1500lbs heavier than an F150 (depending on models/options). Weight is a huge factor in towing as you need a heavier tow vehicle as your tow weight increases, otherwise you lose handling characteristics when said trailer starts to push and pull on the tow vehicle through normal (and abnormal) driving circumstances. The added weight of the Cyber Truck will actually help it in terms of stability during towing and, in many cases, it will likely tow better than most half ton trucks currently on the market. I'm curious to see how it plays out in reality. And your points help as well - since trucks are naturally higher CG vehicles the batteries are also going to be a competitive advantage in making it more nimble all around. I'd happily trade my current tow vehicle for something that can do 500 miles towing 6k lbs. That would cover 95% of my use cases I have a tow vehicle for in the first place.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> The Tesla Cybertruck and this are built by people who don't drive pickups and don't know why people really drive pickups. $125k and can only tow half of what a $30k F-150 can? For real? Why do you think towing is so critical? The point of a pickup is that the load carrying is integral - that's what the bed in the back is for. If you're towing you don't need a pickup.

mattmaroon 7y ago
Because I have watched the big 3 wage a towing capacity war over the last five years and buyers have really responded. Market shares have grown and shrunk in lockstep with towing capacity. It's perhaps not rational. Only 25% of pickup owners tow more than once a year. But, people buy sports cars based on 0-60 times they'll never hit more than once or twice when they first get the car. People don't buy a Porsche because they drive at 250 mph all the time, they buy it because it can even though they never do, and I think towing capacity is similar for pickups.