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Don’t absolutely need home charging although it helps. Charging at work or access to fast chargers around town also works.

by natch 7y ago

ianai 7y ago
I really wish batteries were a standardized, removable part. People could join a coop type thing where they drive up, swap in a fully charged battery, leave the old on a charger, and go. The problem is these battery packs tens of thousands of dollars (I think, given costs per kWh) and aren’t standardized. Seems like something the auto companies should be open to standardizing. They’ve done the same with oil - because they had to accommodate the fuel literally burning away. Edit-I get that they’re heavy, but that can be standardized away, too.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  Even if they were standardized, would it naturally be workable as an exchange system similar to water cooler and propane bottles? Battery packs are massive, complex, sensitive to abuse and expensive to replace. Those are very different qualities from water bottles and propane tanks. I'm genuinely curious if we have any successful exchange system examples resembling EV batteries to reference as precedence.
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    Nio is trying it in China: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/power-shift-battery-swapping-our-way-across-china https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/power-shift-batte...
  - ianai 7y ago
    Actually possibly old style taxi cabs? Drivers rented the cars day to day, as I recall. Yes, not as much a technical issue as a legal issue. Really only need to nail the legal framework though, I think. Desktop computers didn’t start standardized, but it’s pretty mature now. I’m definitely curious if there’s not a hard reason keeping this from practicality.
- natch 7y ago
  I used to think this too, but funny enough people seem to want to have their own batteries rather than using loaner ones that have possibly been abused by others. Also in some cars the battery pack is used to add strength and rigidity to the body, thus saving weight and adding efficiency. Harder to pull this off if it’s removable.
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    > people seem to want to have their own batteries rather than using loaner ones that have possibly been abused by others I think that's a rational desire when you've bought the battery with your vehicle. If there were an option to have the vehicle delivered sans battery then enter into a swap program of your choosing which provided the battery that you never actually owned (why would you want to, really, it's _the_ expensive wear component most likely to be meaningfully obsoleted repeatedly), then people would probably feel very differently about it.
    - ianai 7y ago
      Mark my words. If this attempt at electrifying vehicles fails the non-serviceable batteries will be in the short list of reasons. There is no one giving an irrefutable reason they can’t be supported. Other than the manufacturers want an artificial push to replace vehicles like smartphones. Edit-Ok found a slightly convincing argument. The battery pack in a Tesla 3 weighs 1000lbs. It’d require a swap station in order to support removing them. I still say it’s doable. It has to be supported if we want to avert catastrophic climate change. This is a breakthrough that batteries need to get.
      - foobarian 7y ago
        Tesla had a demo for a battery pack replacement station [1, 2013], but I guess it never went anywhere. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY
        ianai 7y ago
- golemiprague 7y ago
  There was a company in Israel called better place that did a trial with Renault, they had replacement stations where some device would replace the batteries and you basically payed an ongoing subscription fee for that plus the cost of charging. It was only for one model of cars and it didn't work out at all from various reasons.
- Isinlor 7y ago
  Tesla was fooling around with that. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/videos/battery-swap-event?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/videos/battery-swap-event?redire... If they didn't stick with it, nobody will. Also, standardizing batteries across companies is just silly. Electric cars basically are batteries. If you standardize the most important element of the car, you will kill innovation. Superchargers on long trips (~1600 km per hour charging with v3) are sufficient. It's 15 min of charing per 400km or 4 hours or driving. Charging at home/work everyday is actually more convenient than tracking discharge and going to some special place every couple of days. Building chargers at parking places is not expensive. From what I gather it should not be more than a few thousands. In bulk it's probably even cheaper.

Don’t absolutely need home charging although it helps. Charging at work or access to fast chargers around town also works.

by natch 7y ago

Don’t absolutely need home charging although it helps. Charging at work or access to fast chargers around town also works.

ianai 7y ago

I really wish batteries were a standardized, removable part. People could join a coop type thing where they drive up, swap in a fully charged battery, leave the old on a charger, and go. The problem is these battery packs tens of thousands of dollars (I think, given costs per kWh) and aren’t standardized. Seems like something the auto companies should be open to standardizing. They’ve done the same with oil - because they had to accommodate the fuel literally burning away. Edit-I get that they’re heavy, but that can be standardized away, too.

newnewpdro 7y ago
Even if they were standardized, would it naturally be workable as an exchange system similar to water cooler and propane bottles? Battery packs are massive, complex, sensitive to abuse and expensive to replace. Those are very different qualities from water bottles and propane tanks. I'm genuinely curious if we have any successful exchange system examples resembling EV batteries to reference as precedence.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  Nio is trying it in China: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/power-shift-battery-swapping-our-way-across-china https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/power-shift-batte...
- ianai 7y ago
  Actually possibly old style taxi cabs? Drivers rented the cars day to day, as I recall. Yes, not as much a technical issue as a legal issue. Really only need to nail the legal framework though, I think. Desktop computers didn’t start standardized, but it’s pretty mature now. I’m definitely curious if there’s not a hard reason keeping this from practicality.
natch 7y ago
I used to think this too, but funny enough people seem to want to have their own batteries rather than using loaner ones that have possibly been abused by others. Also in some cars the battery pack is used to add strength and rigidity to the body, thus saving weight and adding efficiency. Harder to pull this off if it’s removable.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  > people seem to want to have their own batteries rather than using loaner ones that have possibly been abused by others I think that's a rational desire when you've bought the battery with your vehicle. If there were an option to have the vehicle delivered sans battery then enter into a swap program of your choosing which provided the battery that you never actually owned (why would you want to, really, it's _the_ expensive wear component most likely to be meaningfully obsoleted repeatedly), then people would probably feel very differently about it.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Mark my words. If this attempt at electrifying vehicles fails the non-serviceable batteries will be in the short list of reasons. There is no one giving an irrefutable reason they can’t be supported. Other than the manufacturers want an artificial push to replace vehicles like smartphones. Edit-Ok found a slightly convincing argument. The battery pack in a Tesla 3 weighs 1000lbs. It’d require a swap station in order to support removing them. I still say it’s doable. It has to be supported if we want to avert catastrophic climate change. This is a breakthrough that batteries need to get.
    - foobarian 7y ago
      Tesla had a demo for a battery pack replacement station [1, 2013], but I guess it never went anywhere. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY
      - ianai 7y ago
golemiprague 7y ago
There was a company in Israel called better place that did a trial with Renault, they had replacement stations where some device would replace the batteries and you basically payed an ongoing subscription fee for that plus the cost of charging. It was only for one model of cars and it didn't work out at all from various reasons.
Isinlor 7y ago
Tesla was fooling around with that. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/videos/battery-swap-event?redirect=no https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/videos/battery-swap-event?redire... If they didn't stick with it, nobody will. Also, standardizing batteries across companies is just silly. Electric cars basically are batteries. If you standardize the most important element of the car, you will kill innovation. Superchargers on long trips (~1600 km per hour charging with v3) are sufficient. It's 15 min of charing per 400km or 4 hours or driving. Charging at home/work everyday is actually more convenient than tracking discharge and going to some special place every couple of days. Building chargers at parking places is not expensive. From what I gather it should not be more than a few thousands. In bulk it's probably even cheaper.