4 ms·

Yeah, imagine if this was applied to something like water. Having it be a public utility? We'd all be dead...

mytailorisrich 7y ago
It seems I was too generous... Your example misses both the point and the spirit of the proposal. Broadband and the technology sector in general are both highly competitive and highly innovative. As I mentioned, and as everyone sensible wrote in the media, they are about socialism: Everything must be state-owned (and in fact workers-owner) by political ideology. Nevermind that this failed with appalling results throughout the 20th century... At a time when Europe is commemorating the fall of the Berlin Wall this is sad.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  It's already been done in ~500 communities in the United States, according to the article. Capitalism failed so hard that governments could actually do it better. AFAIK, no one has died yet because of it.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    People being able to set up their own broadband when third party companies deem it not worthwhile is the free market working. This is not what they are proposing nor what would be allowed in their dream socialist regime. Again, this is nothing more than a re-hash of failed 20th century experiments (and many people did die because of the results...).
    - Miner49er 7y ago
      Yeah, my bad, I messed up my comment, I was editing it as you wrote yours. I meant to say "capitalism" not the free market. The socialist broadband was created in those communities because the privately owned broadband was so bad. But yeah, you're right, there's still a market.
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      20th century experiments like Japan and South Korea's public internet infrastructure programs which lead them having fastest and cheapest internet connections in the world? Britain's national telecom company was rolling out fibre in the 80's before the conservative government decided we'd be better served by private companies. https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost-the-broadband-race-in-1990-1224784 https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-l...
      - hshsshhshs 7y ago
        Source on asian "public internet infrastructure"? I'd like to know more about this.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  > Broadband and the technology sector in general are both highly competitive and highly innovative. Are we talking about UK or southern Europe, for example Romania with gigabit fiber at $20/mo for like the past 5 years ?
- andrekandre 7y ago
  > (and in fact workers-owner) what’s wrong with that? > by political ideology but isn’t that how our current system is as well? the political ideology of “free market” and “globalism” etc?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Can you imagine? Workers and citizens owning critical local infrastructure instead of shareholders? The horror! Seriously though, there are efforts like this already in the UK as a non-profit [1], and they are crushing it. You don't need private ownership to bring about innovation. You need a healthy attitude towards trying unconventional methods, and constrained resources doesn't hurt. [1] https://b4rn.org.uk/ https://b4rn.org.uk/ (B4RN is a professionally designed fibre optic broadband network, registered as a non-profit community benefit society, and run by a dedicated local team with the support of landowners and volunteers. We offer 1,000Mbps FTTH broadband to every property in our coverage areas, costing households only £30 per month.) EDIT: B4RN did a 3 million pound bond offer, and it was oversubscribed by 10%. https://www.triodoscrowdfunding.co.uk/invest/broadband-for-the-rural-north https://www.triodoscrowdfunding.co.uk/invest/broadband-for-t...
- jessaustin 7y ago
  too generous... It seems instead that you are too stingy with your arguments. Why is socialism such a bad policy for these sorts of services? You can't just invoke the Great Leap Forward and expect anyone to agree.
- nicoburns 7y ago
  And you think the position of "everything must be privately owned and a competitive market" is not an ideology? Internet infrastructure is a natural monopoly, and it makes a lot of sense for it to be publicly owned.
  - davidw 7y ago
    And even if you think it's not a great idea, it's worth discussing it like adults rather than "communistical!", although the article's title doesn't help with that.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      Discussing like adults means having the knowledge and will to face the facts (and to avoid childish blanket downvotes...) John McDonnell say himself that he is a Marxist. The current Labour manifest is hardcore socialist and many of their plans are exactly how things were in former socialist/communist countries. It's clueless or disingenuous to claim otherwise.
      - nicoburns 7y ago
        It's also disingenuous to compare their manifesto to full on communism when they are planning to leave the majority of the economy to the private markets. Just because someone thinks that Marx's analysis is insightful doesn't mean that they are advocating a soviet style economic system. You say their plans are "hardcore socialist", but most of them have comparable implementation in other western european countries. And socialist or not (socialism isn't a dirty word you know), they have generally been very successful for these countries. To take one example, a large proportion of the British rail system that is supposedly "privately" run, is in fact run by the state rail companies of other countries (who bid on the contracts). It's kind of crazy that we allow them to profit off our country in this way.
- InitialLastName 7y ago
  Broadband, being a natural monopoly in terms of having to actually run wires into your house, is the opposite of competitive. I don't know if Canada is the same way, but most places in the US have at most 2 options, both mediocre.
  - andrenth 7y ago
    This is no natural monopoly, only a broken system. Where I live in Brazil I have at least half a dozen broadband providers to choose from, big and small, and this is not a major city.

It seems I was too generous... Your example misses both the point and the spirit of the proposal. Broadband and the technology sector in general are both highly competitive and highly innovative. As I mentioned, and as everyone sensible wrote in the media, they are about socialism: Everything must be state-owned (and in fact workers-owner) by political ideology. Nevermind that this failed with appalling results throughout the 20th century... At a time when Europe is commemorating the fall of the Berlin Wall this is sad.

Miner49er 7y ago
It's already been done in ~500 communities in the United States, according to the article. Capitalism failed so hard that governments could actually do it better. AFAIK, no one has died yet because of it.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  People being able to set up their own broadband when third party companies deem it not worthwhile is the free market working. This is not what they are proposing nor what would be allowed in their dream socialist regime. Again, this is nothing more than a re-hash of failed 20th century experiments (and many people did die because of the results...).
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    Yeah, my bad, I messed up my comment, I was editing it as you wrote yours. I meant to say "capitalism" not the free market. The socialist broadband was created in those communities because the privately owned broadband was so bad. But yeah, you're right, there's still a market.
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    20th century experiments like Japan and South Korea's public internet infrastructure programs which lead them having fastest and cheapest internet connections in the world? Britain's national telecom company was rolling out fibre in the 80's before the conservative government decided we'd be better served by private companies. https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost-the-broadband-race-in-1990-1224784 https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-l...
    - hshsshhshs 7y ago
      Source on asian "public internet infrastructure"? I'd like to know more about this.
NullPrefix 7y ago
> Broadband and the technology sector in general are both highly competitive and highly innovative. Are we talking about UK or southern Europe, for example Romania with gigabit fiber at $20/mo for like the past 5 years ?
andrekandre 7y ago
> (and in fact workers-owner) what’s wrong with that? > by political ideology but isn’t that how our current system is as well? the political ideology of “free market” and “globalism” etc?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Can you imagine? Workers and citizens owning critical local infrastructure instead of shareholders? The horror! Seriously though, there are efforts like this already in the UK as a non-profit [1], and they are crushing it. You don't need private ownership to bring about innovation. You need a healthy attitude towards trying unconventional methods, and constrained resources doesn't hurt. [1] https://b4rn.org.uk/ https://b4rn.org.uk/ (B4RN is a professionally designed fibre optic broadband network, registered as a non-profit community benefit society, and run by a dedicated local team with the support of landowners and volunteers. We offer 1,000Mbps FTTH broadband to every property in our coverage areas, costing households only £30 per month.) EDIT: B4RN did a 3 million pound bond offer, and it was oversubscribed by 10%. https://www.triodoscrowdfunding.co.uk/invest/broadband-for-the-rural-north https://www.triodoscrowdfunding.co.uk/invest/broadband-for-t...
jessaustin 7y ago
too generous... It seems instead that you are too stingy with your arguments. Why is socialism such a bad policy for these sorts of services? You can't just invoke the Great Leap Forward and expect anyone to agree.
nicoburns 7y ago
And you think the position of "everything must be privately owned and a competitive market" is not an ideology? Internet infrastructure is a natural monopoly, and it makes a lot of sense for it to be publicly owned.
- davidw 7y ago
  And even if you think it's not a great idea, it's worth discussing it like adults rather than "communistical!", although the article's title doesn't help with that.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    Discussing like adults means having the knowledge and will to face the facts (and to avoid childish blanket downvotes...) John McDonnell say himself that he is a Marxist. The current Labour manifest is hardcore socialist and many of their plans are exactly how things were in former socialist/communist countries. It's clueless or disingenuous to claim otherwise.
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      It's also disingenuous to compare their manifesto to full on communism when they are planning to leave the majority of the economy to the private markets. Just because someone thinks that Marx's analysis is insightful doesn't mean that they are advocating a soviet style economic system. You say their plans are "hardcore socialist", but most of them have comparable implementation in other western european countries. And socialist or not (socialism isn't a dirty word you know), they have generally been very successful for these countries. To take one example, a large proportion of the British rail system that is supposedly "privately" run, is in fact run by the state rail companies of other countries (who bid on the contracts). It's kind of crazy that we allow them to profit off our country in this way.
InitialLastName 7y ago
Broadband, being a natural monopoly in terms of having to actually run wires into your house, is the opposite of competitive. I don't know if Canada is the same way, but most places in the US have at most 2 options, both mediocre.
- andrenth 7y ago
  This is no natural monopoly, only a broken system. Where I live in Brazil I have at least half a dozen broadband providers to choose from, big and small, and this is not a major city.