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> Paying $5000 more for gas and electricity is no problem when you get the full $5000 back. Then people stop buying fuel, and the tax income from fuels taxes d

by sampo 7y ago

> Paying $5000 more for gas and electricity is no problem when you get the full $5000 back. Then people stop buying fuel, and the tax income from fuels taxes dries out, and then the state no longer has the funds to pay those dividents. The state will need to stop paying dividents. Yes, emissions went down (a good thing), but also people's standard of living went down.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
The only way standard of living goes down is if, and to the extent, the replacement technology costs more than the existing technology -- even after it's being deployed with economies of scale. And that's the minimum amount we can pay in order to cause it to actually happen regardless. Since the alternatives are very close to cost competitive already, that isn't a huge hit if any, and greater economies of scale may even invert it and increase standard of living once they hit critical mass. All the tax does is cause people to have a preference for the new technology over the old one when it would have otherwise been about even. And by the time the dividend goes to zero because nobody is buying fuel anymore, that also means that nobody is paying the tax anymore either. The only difference is that then every car is electric, which by that point cost about the same or less to own than gasoline cars traditionally did.
- sampo 7y ago
  Transport is only 20% of global CO2 emissions. You need to do much more than just convert cars, trucks, train, ships and airplanes to run on electricity. I don't share your optimism that this is doable without significant increase in how much things cost.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    Transport is "only 20%" but the combination of transport, power generation and heat is the majority of CO2 emissions, and all of those things have zero carbon alternatives at not much higher prices than the existing methods. And most of the rest of it is "agriculture" and "industry" which is a lot of the same thing -- a diesel tractor or bulldozer is still a thing we can make run on batteries instead.

by sampo 7y ago

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

The only way standard of living goes down is if, and to the extent, the replacement technology costs more than the existing technology -- even after it's being deployed with economies of scale. And that's the minimum amount we can pay in order to cause it to actually happen regardless. Since the alternatives are very close to cost competitive already, that isn't a huge hit if any, and greater economies of scale may even invert it and increase standard of living once they hit critical mass. All the tax does is cause people to have a preference for the new technology over the old one when it would have otherwise been about even. And by the time the dividend goes to zero because nobody is buying fuel anymore, that also means that nobody is paying the tax anymore either. The only difference is that then every car is electric, which by that point cost about the same or less to own than gasoline cars traditionally did.

sampo 7y ago
Transport is only 20% of global CO2 emissions. You need to do much more than just convert cars, trucks, train, ships and airplanes to run on electricity. I don't share your optimism that this is doable without significant increase in how much things cost.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  Transport is "only 20%" but the combination of transport, power generation and heat is the majority of CO2 emissions, and all of those things have zero carbon alternatives at not much higher prices than the existing methods. And most of the rest of it is "agriculture" and "industry" which is a lot of the same thing -- a diesel tractor or bulldozer is still a thing we can make run on batteries instead.