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You're clearly drawing paralells to nazi germany and the holocaust, but it's not as though it was years of peaceful planning followed by a sudden outburst of vi

You're clearly drawing paralells to nazi germany and the holocaust, but it's not as though it was years of peaceful planning followed by a sudden outburst of violence. A quick timeline: * Jan. 1933 Hitler took power * Feb. 1933 civil liberties of Jews "temporarily" curtailed. This is a key step. * Mar. 1933 Dachau created * May 1933 Books nazis disliked burned * Sept. 1935 Nuremberg Laws; gypsies and others sent to concentration camps * July 1938 Hitler tries to sell German Jews to the rest of the world at $250/head * Nov. 1938 Kristallnacht; Jewish kids kicked out of public schools * Dec. 1938 nazis seize Jewish businesses * Sept. 1939 Germany invades Poland * Oct. 1939 "euthanasia" starts * Dec. 1940 Mass murders at Treblinka Look at the timeline and tell me where you think we are. Then please point to the currently-elected American politician who is "calmly suggest[ing] killing Jews as a way to fix what ails the country". I get fed up with the argument that current leadership is "literally hitler". It's intentionally dis-ingenuous, put forth in bad faith, and designed to incite unrest with no reasonable backing of the points. Source: https://isurvived.org/cronology.html https://isurvived.org/cronology.html

zapita 7y ago
We are somewhere between February 1933 and November 1938. The analogy to Nazi Germany is not perfect (no analogy is), but we are in fact witnessing a transition from democracy to xenophobic totalitarianism in the US, among other places. I invite you to question your own reaction. Why does it bother you so much that people make this comparison? How could making this comparison “incite unrest”? Would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison?
- big_chungus 7y ago
  So "literally hitler" has taken power? Who do you believe this to be? How have the civil liberties of American citizens been curtailed by legislative actions? > Why would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison? This is a blatant mis-representation of what I have said. I responded to your comment claiming that we ought to punch people who hold certain positions. I don't believe we ought to restrict anyone from saying anything that's not defamatory; if something defamatory is said, it can be fought out in court. The fact that I disagree with your position doesn't mean I advocate restricting your right to express it.
  - zapita 7y ago
    > So "literally hitler" has taken power? No. I believe I used the term “analogy” which is the opposite of what you’re implying. > How have the civil liberties of American citizens been curtailed by legislative actions? I didn’t mention legislative actions. There’s an overwhelming consensus among experts on authoritarianism (not just US experts, in case you were hoping to dismiss those experts as partisan hacks) that the US is currently in a transition from democracy to authoritarianism. I won’t argue this point with you for the same reason I won’t argue the reality of the climate crisis. > > Would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison? > Why would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison? You are misquoting me: my question does not start with “why”. You added that word out of thin air, completely changing the meaning of my question. > I responded to your comment claiming that we ought to punch people who hold certain positions. I never said that either. You must be confusing my post with another.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Even if you believe that Hitler has taken power (which I am sure some people believe), what is your analog of "civil liberties of X 'temporarily' curtailed"? What specific event do you point to that you think is equivalent to that?
  - zapita 7y ago
    Again, I believe Nazi Germany is a useful analogy. I do not think it’s a perfect analogy, nor do I think that “actual Hitler” has taken power. I do believe that civil liberties have been curtailed. For example: - Not long ago, citizens from certain Muslim countries were unilaterally barred from entering the country. The implementation of this ban was so rushed as to be reckless. - ICE has systemically violated the rights of citizens and legal asylum seekers. This includes harassment, illegal searches, illegal separations of families, numerous incidents of brutality, etc. - Notoriously, we have built concentration camps along the Mexican border. Asylum seekers are detained there in conditions which undeniably violate their civil rights. Children have died because they were denied basic care. Hundreds of children have gone missing entirely while under US custody. - In many US states, access to safe abortion has been severely limited by unconstitutional legislative action. - Violence against American muslims, jews, black Americans, lgbtq, native Americans and other minorities is at an all time high. Many of the most violent attacks were perpetrated by people who openly confessed to have been inspired by hate speech coming from the President and his allies. The effect of this is that targeted citizens are less safe, and less likely to exercise their rights to free speech because of fear and government-sanctioned intimidation. Here the parallel to the Brown Shirts in Germany is quite strong. - Trump just pardoned convicted war criminals. This sends a strong message to US military personnel that gratuitous violence and cruelty against civilians will be tolerated. This obviously violates the civil liberties of the people whose liberties our troops were supposed to protect in the first place.. - The EPA has been gutted along with major regulation of corporate pollution. If you consider access to clean air and water a basic civil liberty, then those have been severely curtailed as well. - Voter suppression, both legal and illegal, is on the rise. Gerrymandering, the abuse of Senatorial powers, abusive purging of voter rolls, the disenfranchisement of former felons, voter intimidation, and outright fraud, all add up to restricting US citizen’s right to fair representation. - The Judiciary is under attack on two fronts: the current GA is dismantling any semblance of independence from the President’s partisan interests. And the Senate majority is packing federal courts with unqualified loyalists. The result is that we may no longer have an independent judiciary in a few years. Hopefully I don’t have to explain the consequences of that for our civil liberties.
watwut 7y ago
Hitler did not magically appeared in 1933. He was politically active pretty much from 1918. The ideas he drawn from were even more older. 1933 is when Hitler gained all the power and Germany was pretty much at point of no return. The time to stop Hitler was before. Your timeline literally starts when experienced and possible opposition is about to go to Dachau. It is too late at that point.
mcguire 7y ago
Mein Kampf, 1923: "The historian Ian Kershaw points out that several passages in Mein Kampf are undeniably of a genocidal nature. Hitler wrote "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated", and he suggested that, "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain." "The racial laws to which Hitler referred resonate directly with his ideas in Mein Kampf. In the first edition of Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that the destruction of the weak and sick is far more humane than their protection. Apart from this allusion to humane treatment, Hitler saw a purpose in destroying "the weak" in order to provide the proper space and purity for the "strong"." Note that this was in a book for popular publication, that Hitler "hopes the book will run into many editions, thus enabling him to fulfill his financial obligations and to defray the expenses incurred at the time of his trial". Announcing that when you rise to power, you intend to kill a significant fraction of the population is probably a bit much to expect. The "temporary curtailment" was not really the first step.
mrtaway90210 7y ago
Interesting fact: please see: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-2016-voting-precinct-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-201... Scroll to Brooklyn NY. Trump enjoyed 93% support in an all Hasidic Jewish neighborhood (ocean parkway district.) and 80%+ support across most hasidic Jewish districts.

zapita 7y ago

We are somewhere between February 1933 and November 1938. The analogy to Nazi Germany is not perfect (no analogy is), but we are in fact witnessing a transition from democracy to xenophobic totalitarianism in the US, among other places. I invite you to question your own reaction. Why does it bother you so much that people make this comparison? How could making this comparison “incite unrest”? Would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison?

big_chungus 7y ago
So "literally hitler" has taken power? Who do you believe this to be? How have the civil liberties of American citizens been curtailed by legislative actions? > Why would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison? This is a blatant mis-representation of what I have said. I responded to your comment claiming that we ought to punch people who hold certain positions. I don't believe we ought to restrict anyone from saying anything that's not defamatory; if something defamatory is said, it can be fought out in court. The fact that I disagree with your position doesn't mean I advocate restricting your right to express it.
- zapita 7y ago
  > So "literally hitler" has taken power? No. I believe I used the term “analogy” which is the opposite of what you’re implying. > How have the civil liberties of American citizens been curtailed by legislative actions? I didn’t mention legislative actions. There’s an overwhelming consensus among experts on authoritarianism (not just US experts, in case you were hoping to dismiss those experts as partisan hacks) that the US is currently in a transition from democracy to authoritarianism. I won’t argue this point with you for the same reason I won’t argue the reality of the climate crisis. > > Would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison? > Why would you recommend forbidding anyone from making this comparison? You are misquoting me: my question does not start with “why”. You added that word out of thin air, completely changing the meaning of my question. > I responded to your comment claiming that we ought to punch people who hold certain positions. I never said that either. You must be confusing my post with another.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
Even if you believe that Hitler has taken power (which I am sure some people believe), what is your analog of "civil liberties of X 'temporarily' curtailed"? What specific event do you point to that you think is equivalent to that?
- zapita 7y ago
  Again, I believe Nazi Germany is a useful analogy. I do not think it’s a perfect analogy, nor do I think that “actual Hitler” has taken power. I do believe that civil liberties have been curtailed. For example: - Not long ago, citizens from certain Muslim countries were unilaterally barred from entering the country. The implementation of this ban was so rushed as to be reckless. - ICE has systemically violated the rights of citizens and legal asylum seekers. This includes harassment, illegal searches, illegal separations of families, numerous incidents of brutality, etc. - Notoriously, we have built concentration camps along the Mexican border. Asylum seekers are detained there in conditions which undeniably violate their civil rights. Children have died because they were denied basic care. Hundreds of children have gone missing entirely while under US custody. - In many US states, access to safe abortion has been severely limited by unconstitutional legislative action. - Violence against American muslims, jews, black Americans, lgbtq, native Americans and other minorities is at an all time high. Many of the most violent attacks were perpetrated by people who openly confessed to have been inspired by hate speech coming from the President and his allies. The effect of this is that targeted citizens are less safe, and less likely to exercise their rights to free speech because of fear and government-sanctioned intimidation. Here the parallel to the Brown Shirts in Germany is quite strong. - Trump just pardoned convicted war criminals. This sends a strong message to US military personnel that gratuitous violence and cruelty against civilians will be tolerated. This obviously violates the civil liberties of the people whose liberties our troops were supposed to protect in the first place.. - The EPA has been gutted along with major regulation of corporate pollution. If you consider access to clean air and water a basic civil liberty, then those have been severely curtailed as well. - Voter suppression, both legal and illegal, is on the rise. Gerrymandering, the abuse of Senatorial powers, abusive purging of voter rolls, the disenfranchisement of former felons, voter intimidation, and outright fraud, all add up to restricting US citizen’s right to fair representation. - The Judiciary is under attack on two fronts: the current GA is dismantling any semblance of independence from the President’s partisan interests. And the Senate majority is packing federal courts with unqualified loyalists. The result is that we may no longer have an independent judiciary in a few years. Hopefully I don’t have to explain the consequences of that for our civil liberties.

watwut 7y ago

Hitler did not magically appeared in 1933. He was politically active pretty much from 1918. The ideas he drawn from were even more older. 1933 is when Hitler gained all the power and Germany was pretty much at point of no return. The time to stop Hitler was before. Your timeline literally starts when experienced and possible opposition is about to go to Dachau. It is too late at that point.

mcguire 7y ago

Mein Kampf, 1923: "The historian Ian Kershaw points out that several passages in Mein Kampf are undeniably of a genocidal nature. Hitler wrote "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated", and he suggested that, "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain." "The racial laws to which Hitler referred resonate directly with his ideas in Mein Kampf. In the first edition of Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that the destruction of the weak and sick is far more humane than their protection. Apart from this allusion to humane treatment, Hitler saw a purpose in destroying "the weak" in order to provide the proper space and purity for the "strong"." Note that this was in a book for popular publication, that Hitler "hopes the book will run into many editions, thus enabling him to fulfill his financial obligations and to defray the expenses incurred at the time of his trial". Announcing that when you rise to power, you intend to kill a significant fraction of the population is probably a bit much to expect. The "temporary curtailment" was not really the first step.

mrtaway90210 7y ago

Interesting fact: please see: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-2016-voting-precinct-maps.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-201... Scroll to Brooklyn NY. Trump enjoyed 93% support in an all Hasidic Jewish neighborhood (ocean parkway district.) and 80%+ support across most hasidic Jewish districts.