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Systemd Brand
- artonge 7y agoCan someone share the reasons why systemd generate so much hate ? I seems to me that it is quite useful and easy to use.
- aidenn0 7y agoMy current thoughts on the matter here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21313885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21313885
- sergiomattei 7y agoBecause it's trendy to hate on systemd. It's a bandwagon. Really, that's it. There's technical reasons for really advanced users, but for average users systemd works just fine, and it's easy to use. In my experience, it's been a pleasure to use.
- JohnFen 7y agoThat's not true or fair. That you've had a wonderful experience with it doesn't mean that others don't have legitimate issues with it.
- esarbe 7y agoJust because there's a vocal minority that complains very loudly doesn't mean it doesn't work for most users out there. The distribution maintainers have spoken; systemd is a vastly superior to any alternative out there. It's no contest, really. It makes building and maintaining complex and dynamic system setups laughably easy. So easy that just about every distribution maintainer threw their arms up in the air and said "Fuck that constantly breaking, inconsistent, unportable, unmaintainable init script shit that's SystemV and move to some thing sane." I've yet to work with a system engineer that dislikes systemd. Has Not Yet Happened. People complaining about systemd is like people complaining that these newfangled LED lights are not producing enough heat.
- kstrauser 7y ago> Just because there's a vocal minority that complains very loudly doesn't mean it doesn't work for most users out there. That's not adequate in itself. If we were talking about a database that only lost data if your last name started with "Z", then JWZ would probably be quite vocal about it. Even if it worked fine for you and me, that would be a serious problem. If systemd (or anything else) had a major design flaw, that would be important even if most people don't get bitten by it. > I've yet to work with a system engineer that dislikes systemd. Has Not Yet Happened. I've heard from plenty who dislike it. Plenty who love it, too, to be sure! But there's definitely a non-negligible set of sysadmins who don't care for it. > People complaining about systemd is like people complaining that these newfangled LED lights are not producing enough heat. More like people complaining that every now and then it catches their loft on fire, but so rarely that everyone else thinks it's peachy.
- JohnFen 7y ago> Just because there's a vocal minority that complains very loudly doesn't mean it doesn't work for most users out there. Yes, obviously. > The distribution maintainers have spoken; systemd is a vastly superior to any alternative out there. This seems like a logical leap. Sure, distros have spoken -- but that doesn't speak to whether or not systemd is generally superior. It only speaks to it being acceptable for distros. > People complaining about systemd is like people complaining that these newfangled LED lights are not producing enough heat. I don't see that parallel at all. But I guess it doesn't matter. What I do know is that I've used systemd a lot, and it certainly has its benefits. But it also has its drawbacks. Personally, the tradeoff is not acceptable to me. This is why systemd has spurred me to stop using Linux in favor of BSD.
- baked_ziti 7y agoVoid Linux is a nice alternative which defaults to runit. I feel like I'll probably end up in the same spot though, switching to BSD.
- JohnFen 7y ago
- simion314 7y agoI agree that regular users should not debate this , but I seen admins critiquing systemd and regular users trending on defending systemd and on linux reddit the topics are always locked instead of moderating the bad actors. As an example GDM/GNOME should not depend on systemd components and they should accept patches to support alternatives.
- esarbe 7y agoThat's about my experience too. Systemd just works. It's easy to create new systemd units for all kind of dependent services and resources. Be it server or desktop; systemd just does it's thing and it's bloody good at it. (shrug) Hater's will hate, I guess?
- caiocaiocaio 7y agoBuilding a Linux distro was like playing with Lego: the pieces were very interchangeable (in practice there were difficulties, but usually ones that were fun and rewarding to resolve; "fun and rewarding" is the exact opposite of SystemD). SystemD also fails quietly or with useless errors and makes problems hard to diagnose - so a bug not directly caused by SystemD looks like it comes from SystemD because SystemD slime is on everything - is extremely poorly-documented, extremely over-engineered, and subject to rapid change due to the moodiness and instability of the OverPoetter.
- luckycharms810 7y agoI will say on the flip side - Going from cron jobs to Systemd timers has been super helpful. You can use journalctl to track the output and find pesky issues like difference in shell, missing environment variables, file permission issues.
- atonse 7y agoCan you expand on what you feel is over-engineered?
- esarbe 7y agoYour name-calling disqualifies you and discredits any valid argument you might have had.
- kstrauser 7y agoThe short version is that Unix has traditionally been built around small tools, well-tested and optimized, that did one thing and did it very well. Systemd is often perceived as kind of a "betrayal" of that idea, as a big system that tries to do everything. A lot of mistrust comes from that criticism.
- MereInterest 7y agoTo add to that, small tools are beneficial to the ecosystem, because they can be replaced as needed. Systemd takes advantage of this to replace existing tools, but cannot itself be easily replaced.
- dbtx 7y agoI don't hate the USA, I hate fragile/secretly-already-broken promises and simply being lied to. systemd has a smell.
- tempguy9999 7y agoEvery single previous discussion will cover this, pros and cons. Look in HN prior posts for your answer.
- JackRabbitSlim 7y agoLet me ask the other end. What context do you have to compare it to what it replaced for any given use case? Can you tell me why its good? Can you tell me why its better? What problems it "fixes"? Reasons to dislike systemd as a professional sys admin? https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2402 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2402 - brick EFI based systems! https://twitter.com/bitfield/status/736868148348063744?lang=en https://twitter.com/bitfield/status/736868148348063744?lang=... -- Systemd broke your very mature stable application like screen and tmux? https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2018-15688 https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2018-15688 - Root a box on bootup with poison DHCP offers I can keep going, but how are you doing on my questions?
- baked_ziti 7y ago>https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2402 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2402 Well that seemed needlessly contentious. What a shame.
- the_why_of_y 7y agoIndeed, what a shame. Firmware is so crappy that deleting variables bricks it, and the Linux kernel decides to expose those variables as a filesystem so that a simple shell command like rm -rf will actually delete EFI variables, instead of exposing them via ioctl like FreeBSD did [1]. As you can see, if systemd hadn't been invented there would be no problem. [1] https://reviews.freebsd.org/rS307070 https://reviews.freebsd.org/rS307070
- baked_ziti 7y ago> Like I said. Needlessly contentious.
- forgottenpass 7y ago> Can someone share the reasons why systemd generate so much hate ? A handful of improvements came tied to a bunch of new constraints and limitations that were not mandatory to get those improvements. This annoys the people who deal in those less visible areas and got the short end of the stick. A large chunk of what systemd does could have been implemented without also sprawling it's tentacles and cross-dependencies into everything. Had they rolled out that featureset first and given the rest of the ecosystem some time to evolve in response adoption would have gone much smoother.
- 1996 7y agoIt is for the good of all those that might have accidentally used #30D476 and #201A25, while quite obviously it is #30D475 and #201A26 Obviously a very good use of donators money and free software developers time.
- jolmg 7y agoI wonder what drove the need for a logo/brand. Maybe it's to make it more noticeable that it's not written "SystemD".
- tenebrisalietum 7y agoIt's probably dangerous to wear a systemd T-shirt in some places. You also probably don't want to have a systemd bumper car sticker in those same places either.
- bovermyer 7y agoI'm not a fan or a detractor of systemd, but I'd wear a shirt with this logo on it just to start fights.
- capableweb 7y agoHopefully all those rabid programmers who'd start fights with each other over a t-shirt about a suite of software, have moved to SF already so the rest of the world don't have to deal with that.
- umanwizard 7y agoPlenty of places in the world still where people will start fights over soccer team colors...
- sneak 7y agohttps://twitter.com/hintjens/status/528278007417696256 https://twitter.com/hintjens/status/528278007417696256
- capableweb 7y agoFollowing that link, I also came across https://twitter.com/hintjens/status/783254242052206592 https://twitter.com/hintjens/status/783254242052206592 "I'm choosing euthanasia etd 1pm." @12:35 PM · Oct 4, 2016 From Wikipedia: Pieter Hintjens (3 December 1962 – 4 October 2016) was a Belgian software developer It's his choice, and I support it if that's what he really wanted, but it's still really creepy to see.
- rabidrat 7y agoHe was in a lot of pain and wanted to die on his own terms. He was an advocate for dying with dignity, and his last message was to help normalize euthanasia. The creepiness you feel is your impetus to work through your feelings about death and come to terms with it, to admire his incredible clarity and mental ease without having to couch it in "it's his choice" terms. I thought at the time it was a touching piece of humanity and I am grateful he was bold enough to express it.
- capableweb 7y agoMaybe I wasn't clear enough in my first message. I absolutely support the same thing and I don't mean creepy in a bad way. Maybe eerie is a better word for what I feel about public messages before passing away. I have no problem with voluntary eutanasia
- ocdtrekkie 7y agoIf you check his website at http://hintjens.com/ http://hintjens.com/ you'll see "In April 2016 he was diagnosed with terminal metastasis of a previous cancer". So his choice was that or further suffering to the same end result.
- markvdb 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dogecoinbase 7y agoOh hey, if I make a user named [⬤◀], its services will automatically be started as root. What a handy feature.
- fwxwi 7y agoIn case you ever doubted the systemd team suffers from delusions of grandeur.
- mgbmtl 7y agoReally? Like most projects, they have a logo. What's wrong with that?
- fwxwi 7y agoA logo, a palette of colours, a typography, brand guidelines... all for an init system for Linux. They think they are fucking Coca Cola. If you don't think that's just insane... well I'm just getting old I guess.
- theossuary 7y agoThey wrote down the details of how they made their logo; the typeface they used, the colors they used, and the reasoning behind it. I guess they could have just uploaded the design file. I'm gonna guess this is the information Tobias Bernard (the designer) provided them after creating the logo. This is basic design/UI stuff in my mind. I do find it a little funny they don't use 'systemd green' for the hyperlinks on the page, and instead use a different, similar color.
- calcifer 7y agoAn init system is just one of many, many projects under the systemd umbrella. Perhaps you should learn more about a project before launching into criticism?
- fwxwi 7y agoAh that is true. That reminds me that they should only be an init system and not Cthulhu. Friendly reminder that they managed to infiltrate all distros by creating a hard dependency from GNOME to systemd, which they could only pull off because both projects belong to the same corporation.
- sorenjan 7y agoHow do your pronounce it?
- Spivak 7y ago“system dee” like “collect dee” or “ess ess aitch dee”
- sorenjan 7y agoThat's what I thought, but why not write it as SystemD or system-d then?
- jolmg 7y agoBecause it follows the tradition of suffixing daemon executables with "d", like httpd or sshd. https://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#spelling https://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#spelling
- brian_herman__ 7y agoIt should be instead A stop job is running for Session c2 of user ... (9min 30s)
- jasoneckert 7y agoAfter reading "Savaged by Systemd" by M.W.Lucas, I need this logo to get the visuals out of my head (link here for those that are curious: https://www.amazon.com/Savaged-Systemd-Erotic-Unix-Encounter-ebook/dp/B075DYXZW1 https://www.amazon.com/Savaged-Systemd-Erotic-Unix-Encounter...)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- JohnFen 7y ago> The log of OS components successfully starting up, as indicated by the green [ OK ], is what many people already identify systemd with. This made it a natural choice to derive our visual identity from. That's an interesting comment, since the green [ OK ] was in use for bootup messages long before systemd was a thing. Nothing about it says "systemd" to me.
- floren 7y agoHmm, I think you'll find that SystemD has existed since Linux sprang fully-formed from Lennart Poettering's forehead in 2010.
- tannhaeuser 7y agoIt's a tasteless trait of Linux bootup processes since long before SystemD's existence (on RH, SuSE at least), along with totally accessible blue-on-black (wtf) terminal colors.
- jolmg 7y agoThe comment is true for me, though. When I see a linux machine boot up and display a series of aligned [ OK ]s on the left-hand side, I know instantly that it's using systemd. I don't remember seeing [ OK ] with sysvinit, or at least not as uniformly.
- int_19h 7y agoIt depended on the distro. Red Hat was using it for a long time, which I suspect is why systemd has it, too. Look here at 24:40 - this is Red Hat 9, released in 2003: https://youtu.be/QKtzfwyspU0?t=1300 https://youtu.be/QKtzfwyspU0?t=1300 Gentoo also did it from the get go, although it's not SysV.
- JohnFen 7y ago> I know instantly that it's using systemd. Except you don't know really know that. It is objectively true that such usage was around for a long time before systemd in some major distros. I was seeing it at least 10 years ago, and I still see it on my systems that don't use systemd.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoNo kernel patch to replace Tux with the systemd logo?
- JackRabbitSlim 7y agoI had some time and for some reason it made me want to go see how boot images were actually done in the build system so... https://pastebin.com/Ewe3UurF https://pastebin.com/Ewe3UurF not tested or proofed, must provide own logo_mark_beast.ppm of the logo
- caiocaiocaio 7y agoWhat a waste of graphic design.
- sergiomattei 7y agoWhat's the problem with it? It's minimal and displays an element iconic to their boot logs. It's just a logo. You can like it or hate it, it's design. It's bound to be subjective. But why is it "a waste of graphic design"? On a side note, this kind of unhelpful/non-constructive feedback isn't welcome on HN.
- caiocaiocaio 7y agoI think it's great graphic design, wasted on a project that doesn't need branding or identity, and certainly doesn't need any more publicity than it already has. That logo could have been used on something that brought joy into people's lives.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- SahAssar 7y agoFor some people systemd "brought joy" into their lives.
- caiocaiocaio 7y agoSegregation brought joy into some people's lives. I'm sure Stalin was quite happy about engineering the famine in the Ukraine. Every great human-created disaster was pleasing to someone. There are inevitably people who enjoy conflict, destruction, and tragedy. I mean that this logo is a waste of graphic design in the sense that the SS uniform is one of the finest examples of uniform design ever made, but wasted on an organization that would have been better off never existing.
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- tannhaeuser 7y agoOh? I thought they went with Lennax [1]. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21151433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21151433
- atonse 7y agoI too don't get the systemd hate. I like systemd precisely because the components are nicely integrated with each other. It seems like what we would design after learning the lessons of the last 15-20 years of how to manage a linux/unix machine. I would assume more programmer types would like that the redundant "intelligence" that was placed in every init script is now gone, and replaced by a common core that allows you to declaratively say what's different about your daemon (or mount, timer, etc). I've also read that systemd has smart defaults, which is a great thing overall over init scripts. I don't know if this is true, but I would also guess that it makes learning for newer people easier, since you have a similar paradigm and set of tools for your services, mounts, timers, etc. It's consistent, which is great if you don't want to learn 20 different ways of doing things. But then again, I also love the ideas from MS PowerShell and wish we had something like that in the *nix world, so we could pipe objects around rather than having to work with text and use awk, sed, cut, print, and all those things to keep legacy workflows around from decades ago. So maybe I'm just weird :)
- MereInterest 7y agoWhen the default became breaking of screen, tmux, emacs --daemon, nohup, etc, I started disliking systemd. That the major distributions have overridden that default does not excuse systemd from having made that default. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11797075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11797075
- fstephany 7y agoYou might be interested in Nushell[1]. One of their inspiration is PowerShell. [1]: https://book.nushell.sh/en/introduction https://book.nushell.sh/en/introduction
- phendrenad2 7y agoA precursor to Systemd spawning a commercial entity? Will we soon see Systemd Premium and Systemd Community editions?