4 ms·

Sorry, but pet peeve. Shutdown is not a verb. (should be "shut down") http://notaverb.com/shutdown http://notaverb.com/shutdown

hombre_fatal 7y ago
Sure it is. And I'd rather take it from Merriam-Webster than someone's belabored "notaverb.com" hobby horse. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shutdown https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shutdown First known use of shut down as verb: 1779. If your issue is merely with the lack of a space, then it just seems petty to me, like getting technical about raincoat vs rain coat.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  Webster agrees with me, it should be two words, not a single word. That was my point (and is the point of the "notaverb" site).
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    Language is defined by how people actually use it. If people are generally using and understanding "shutdown" as a verb (which has been true in the computer industry for at least 30 years), then it's a verb regardless of what language prescriptionists say.
    - kupiakos 7y ago
      In the present participle, it's "shutting down", not "shutdowning". Or, "she shuts down the computer", not "she shutdowns the computer". "shutdown" is a verb as much as "alot" is a word. It's just a common typo.
    - robbrown451 7y ago
      I'm generally a descriptivist vs. a precriptionist, but this is a different thing. Is there anyone arguing that, just because many people write "there" when they mean "their", that we should consider it correct? To me this is the same. Can you show me anywhere "shutdown" is used as a verb (in the computer industry or otherwise) where it appears as a choice rather than a simple error? Like in the title of a well circulated article, or otherwise in something that has been subject to professional editing? https://twitter.com/apstylebook/status/1087717834975789056?lang=en https://twitter.com/apstylebook/status/1087717834975789056?l...
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        > Is there anyone arguing that, just because many people write "there" when they mean "their", that we should consider it correct? Not yet. But if that becomes common enough, then that just becomes how the language is, like it or not. I personally would hate it and would be that annoying pedant who always calls it out, but if people mostly accept it, then I wouldn't really be in the right. When usage is in transition like that, it's these sorts of debates that determine what the end result will be. My current pet peeve is the use of "literally" for emphasis rather than actually meaning literally. Although I will always object, this usage has become very accepted by people (below a certain age), and so I can't really say they're wrong in some sort of objective sense. But I'll complain anyway.
        robbrown451 7y ago
        Yeah, if it becomes common enough, I suppose you are right. But since this is a whole class of "phrasal verbs" that all have the same rules, it seems less likely that that is going to happen any time soon, as opposed to something like "all right" changing to "alright" which is more of a discrete case. There is also the issue that phrasal verbs are often split up or rearranged ("when will they shut it down?" "it is shutting down", etc), which isn't all that compatible with merging into one word. Anyway I'm glad to see they changed the title on HN, even if I got downvoted for my complaint. :) I appreciate your pointing out the value of this discussion, though! ("it's these sorts of debates that determine what the end result will be.") I'm personally ok with the non-literal use of the word "literal," but that's a different tangent...
- kupiakos 7y ago
  I'm unsure what you mean - they said that there should be a space there and Merriam-Webster seems to support that. They put "shut down" and "shutdown" in the same page, and state that the verb version is "shut down". In the "First Known Use" section, it looks like it's just going with what the name of the whole page is.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    They added the parenthetical "it should be 'shut down'" in an edit. Originally it was just "Sorry, but pet peeve. Shutdown is not a verb." and I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't just quibbling over a space.
    - robbrown451 7y ago
      True I edited, but the link to "not a verb" is pretty obvious what they are talking about. Nobody is going to make a site to claim that you can't say "shut down" as a verb phrase, that makes no sense.
- kissickas 7y ago
  The number of words matters. It's a pretty common pattern. noun: Can you share your login? verb: Check the URL before you log in. noun: Is that a turnoff for you? verb: Turn off the TV when you leave the room.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  It's a very different thing from raincoat vs. rain coat. Those sort of combinations happen all the time, and either can be considered correct. This is a whole class of words that are always two words when used as a verb, and one word when used as a noun. Setup/set up, login/log in, lookup/look up, checkout/check out, etc. I guess you can claim it is petty, but to me it is like using the wrong "there". Especially bad in a title.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
emmp 7y ago
This does not cause ambiguity to anyone. Its a distinction in search of a non-existent problem. The dictionary will change to follow our usage on this one, and we will lose nothing. Compound words become closed all the time.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  I'd hope that, when making a title (not just texting a friend), more than whether it causes ambiguity counts. Would you be equally ok with it if they said "there" when the correct word was "their"? This sort of word does not become compounded in the way "rain coat" can become "raincoat". There isn't a single example where the verb form of any of these, as a single word, is considered correct: backup carryout checkout comeback cutover cutoff failover handout knockout lookup lockdown login logoff logon logout meetup meltdown pickup rollback rollout rollover setup showoff shutdown shutoff signin signoff signout signup slowdown startout startup takedown workaround workout
- workthrowaway 7y ago
  i mean, why downvote the GP? there is a good discussion to have here. and i am in fact learning new things. i am all for using one word (less typing) but i am not sure i am ready to see shutdowning...
jfk13 7y ago
It's a bit ironic that a page devoted to correcting a common orthographic error features a typo of its own: search for "Conjgate". (I would report it to the author, but don't see any contact information.)
- robbrown451 7y ago
  I would consider this different than a typo. It is a common misuse, where to some eyes it appears correct, while to others' (including mine) it jumps out as blatantly incorrect, like saying "there" when you mean "their", or "it's" when you mean "its". And it isn't just a case of typical compounding, words/phrases of that general form are never compounded in verb form.
Proven 7y ago
Sorry, but readers think it is.

hombre_fatal 7y ago

Sure it is. And I'd rather take it from Merriam-Webster than someone's belabored "notaverb.com" hobby horse. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shutdown https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shutdown First known use of shut down as verb: 1779. If your issue is merely with the lack of a space, then it just seems petty to me, like getting technical about raincoat vs rain coat.

robbrown451 7y ago
Webster agrees with me, it should be two words, not a single word. That was my point (and is the point of the "notaverb" site).
- JohnFen 7y ago
  Language is defined by how people actually use it. If people are generally using and understanding "shutdown" as a verb (which has been true in the computer industry for at least 30 years), then it's a verb regardless of what language prescriptionists say.
  - kupiakos 7y ago
    In the present participle, it's "shutting down", not "shutdowning". Or, "she shuts down the computer", not "she shutdowns the computer". "shutdown" is a verb as much as "alot" is a word. It's just a common typo.
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    I'm generally a descriptivist vs. a precriptionist, but this is a different thing. Is there anyone arguing that, just because many people write "there" when they mean "their", that we should consider it correct? To me this is the same. Can you show me anywhere "shutdown" is used as a verb (in the computer industry or otherwise) where it appears as a choice rather than a simple error? Like in the title of a well circulated article, or otherwise in something that has been subject to professional editing? https://twitter.com/apstylebook/status/1087717834975789056?lang=en https://twitter.com/apstylebook/status/1087717834975789056?l...
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > Is there anyone arguing that, just because many people write "there" when they mean "their", that we should consider it correct? Not yet. But if that becomes common enough, then that just becomes how the language is, like it or not. I personally would hate it and would be that annoying pedant who always calls it out, but if people mostly accept it, then I wouldn't really be in the right. When usage is in transition like that, it's these sorts of debates that determine what the end result will be. My current pet peeve is the use of "literally" for emphasis rather than actually meaning literally. Although I will always object, this usage has become very accepted by people (below a certain age), and so I can't really say they're wrong in some sort of objective sense. But I'll complain anyway.
      - robbrown451 7y ago
        Yeah, if it becomes common enough, I suppose you are right. But since this is a whole class of "phrasal verbs" that all have the same rules, it seems less likely that that is going to happen any time soon, as opposed to something like "all right" changing to "alright" which is more of a discrete case. There is also the issue that phrasal verbs are often split up or rearranged ("when will they shut it down?" "it is shutting down", etc), which isn't all that compatible with merging into one word. Anyway I'm glad to see they changed the title on HN, even if I got downvoted for my complaint. :) I appreciate your pointing out the value of this discussion, though! ("it's these sorts of debates that determine what the end result will be.") I'm personally ok with the non-literal use of the word "literal," but that's a different tangent...
kupiakos 7y ago
I'm unsure what you mean - they said that there should be a space there and Merriam-Webster seems to support that. They put "shut down" and "shutdown" in the same page, and state that the verb version is "shut down". In the "First Known Use" section, it looks like it's just going with what the name of the whole page is.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  They added the parenthetical "it should be 'shut down'" in an edit. Originally it was just "Sorry, but pet peeve. Shutdown is not a verb." and I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't just quibbling over a space.
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    True I edited, but the link to "not a verb" is pretty obvious what they are talking about. Nobody is going to make a site to claim that you can't say "shut down" as a verb phrase, that makes no sense.
kissickas 7y ago
The number of words matters. It's a pretty common pattern. noun: Can you share your login? verb: Check the URL before you log in. noun: Is that a turnoff for you? verb: Turn off the TV when you leave the room.
robbrown451 7y ago
It's a very different thing from raincoat vs. rain coat. Those sort of combinations happen all the time, and either can be considered correct. This is a whole class of words that are always two words when used as a verb, and one word when used as a noun. Setup/set up, login/log in, lookup/look up, checkout/check out, etc. I guess you can claim it is petty, but to me it is like using the wrong "there". Especially bad in a title.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

emmp 7y ago

This does not cause ambiguity to anyone. Its a distinction in search of a non-existent problem. The dictionary will change to follow our usage on this one, and we will lose nothing. Compound words become closed all the time.

robbrown451 7y ago
I'd hope that, when making a title (not just texting a friend), more than whether it causes ambiguity counts. Would you be equally ok with it if they said "there" when the correct word was "their"? This sort of word does not become compounded in the way "rain coat" can become "raincoat". There isn't a single example where the verb form of any of these, as a single word, is considered correct: backup carryout checkout comeback cutover cutoff failover handout knockout lookup lockdown login logoff logon logout meetup meltdown pickup rollback rollout rollover setup showoff shutdown shutoff signin signoff signout signup slowdown startout startup takedown workaround workout
workthrowaway 7y ago
i mean, why downvote the GP? there is a good discussion to have here. and i am in fact learning new things. i am all for using one word (less typing) but i am not sure i am ready to see shutdowning...

jfk13 7y ago

It's a bit ironic that a page devoted to correcting a common orthographic error features a typo of its own: search for "Conjgate". (I would report it to the author, but don't see any contact information.)

robbrown451 7y ago
I would consider this different than a typo. It is a common misuse, where to some eyes it appears correct, while to others' (including mine) it jumps out as blatantly incorrect, like saying "there" when you mean "their", or "it's" when you mean "its". And it isn't just a case of typical compounding, words/phrases of that general form are never compounded in verb form.

Proven 7y ago

Sorry, but readers think it is.