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"No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very i

by rick888 16y ago

"No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about." You need money though. So directly or indirectly, money is always a factor. "since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, educational benefits, etc. all without having tons of money." Well, you had that money, it just went to the government instead of your pocket. The choices you could have made with that money are now gone. Once you are an established company in the US, you could afford those benefits yourself (which is more efficient because rather than paying for all healthcare, you can figure out what will work for your company). For many non-web related business, it will make it that much more difficult. If you need to spend money on physical goods and your profit margin is razor thin, huge taxes aren't going to make it easier. If you have a business that doesn't scale well with one person (IE: a tech business where you need to hire more employees quickly), the increased employee taxes and requirements might make it an impossibility to continue (if you have no funding). So, it might help with web businesses that can scale well with one employee or ones that are funded by VC. I wonder how many people are actually bootstrapping a company there. "Since there are different "givens", it's not surprising that Norwegians have arrived at different conclusions and attitudes towards money. QED?" Norwegians now have a sense of entitlement. It all depends on what you want. If you want an easier start, but have your overall potential income limited, start a company in Norway. If you want a riskier start, with less limits in the long-run, start your company in the US. I still have to wonder. If this was such a great system, why aren't more people starting companies? There is no risk, right? Why isn't Norway the center for startups?

jarek 16y ago
> Why isn't Norway the center for startups? It is a center, per capita. From the full version of the article, http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...: "Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium." You don't hear about it as much because Norway is a relatively small country relatively far away from the U.S. (both geographically and culturally). The lack of Silicon Valley-like echo chamber is also a factor.
- rick888 16y ago
  Did you read the part about taxes? -50% alone to the federal government. -1% of your total net worth, which is means you may have to pay taxes, even when you have no profits coming in. -Anytime he purchases something, he is charged VAT -They mentioned 25% payroll taxes -This doesn't include local city/state taxes -There are tons of other taxes that aren't even mentioned (property, luxury, etc) After all this, there isn't much left over. At that point, it's almost state capitalism. The state pretty much owns every company. Even better, you can figure out exactly how much anyone makes through the government website. More gems from the article: "When you start buying expensive stuff, people start to talk," says Dalmo. "I have to be careful, because some of the people who are judging are my potential customers." I don't know about you, but I would rather have the added risk of health care than having the government in full control of my business. The unemployment rate is also misleading. Does Norway consider people that are getting government assistance unemployed? "Between workers who do the same job at a given com pany, salaries vary little, if at all. At Wiggo Dalmo's company, everyone doing the same job makes the same salary." Interesting, so I guess skill set doesn't really matter in Norway. A guy with 6 months of experience will be paid the same rate as a guy with 4 years. Some people are alleging that Norway isn't socialist. They are more socialist than I ever thought. "firing an employee for cause typically takes months, and employers generally end up paying at least three months' severance. " More proof that starting a company may be easy, but having a long-term business will be tough. If you are bootstrapping a company, how can you possibly afford this? "The three things we as Americans worry about—education, retirement, and medical expenses—are things that Norwegians don't worry about," Norwegians are putting all of their eggs in one basket, which is riskier than anything in my mind. They are under the impression that their government will be around to pay for all of their medical expenses in 30-40 years when they want to finally retire. What happens if the system collapses during that time? Since the majority of your money is going into the system, you won't nearly have enough to pay out of your pocket. "Even if Nordlaks made no profits, paid no dividends, and paid its owner no salary, Berg would owe the Norwegian government a third of a million dollars a year. "Every year, I have to take a dividend, just to pay the tax," he says, sounding genuinely angry." I'm amazed that people actually put up with this. I would have left that county asap.
stevenbedrick 16y ago
> Norwegians now have a sense of entitlement. You say that like it's a bad thing. One could say that us Americans have a "sense of entitlement" about things like clean drinking water, functioning emergency services, and a publicly-funded education system; alternatively, one could just as easily say that we have a set of baseline expectations about the sorts of things that a modern society is supposed to provide to its citizens (in exchange for taxes, etc.). It sounds like Norwegians have a different idea of where that baseline should be. > It all depends on what you want. If you want an easier start, but have your overall potential income limited, start a company in Norway. If you want a riskier start, with less limits in the long-run, start your company in the US. OK, fair enough, but again- remember why it is that you care one way or the other about how big your "overall potential income" is. There comes a point where you've got enough to live luxuriously, have all your material wants satisfied, and basically do whatever you want on a day-to-day basis- is there a point to accumulating more than that? From the article, and from what other posters on this thread have said, it sure sounds like the "limited" potential income level in Norway is still quite high, by any rational standard, so what does it matter? After five or six million dollars per year, would an increase actually impact your life in a noticeable way? By the way, I'm speaking from a strictly pragmatic standpoint here, not an idealogical one- some people see this as a moral issue, and that's not where I'm going here. I'm basically saying, "if my income is X millions of dollars, why do I care if the government takes half of that and I only have .5X?" Especially since I know that, by giving up that money, I'm ensuring that my neighbors and employees don't have to worry about medical costs and will be able to retire comfortably? Past a certain point, can you really spend more? And if you do, will it make you happy? Of course, I should point out that this is all very easy for me to say, seeing as I never have and probably never will earn enough to face this question personally. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were rich, who knows.
- jarek 16y ago
  > I'm basically saying, "if my income is X millions of dollars, why do I care if the government takes half of that and I only have .5X?" As I understand it, he fundamentally believes he should be the one making the decision what to do with X dollars he earns -- including potentially distributing it as charity -- rather than a government. I don't agree with this position, but it's fairly consistent.
robryan 16y ago
Might have something to do with the wages and benefits they are getting from employment along with what sounded like great job security in the article. This tax system is really only taking a large chunk if you have a lot to begin with, so I don't think you are going to lose your freedom because of it.
- rick888 16y ago
  "This tax system is really only taking a large chunk if you have a lot to begin with, so I don't think you are going to lose your freedom because of it." The tax system will prevent everyone from getting a large amount and taking a large chunk from the people making a large amount. Even if you have money just sitting in a bank account with 0% interest, you are still taxed every year on that money (IE: your net worth, which is explained in the article). It has created entire generations of people reliant on government services. I just hope the same system is around in 30 or 40 years or all that money will be gone (and since so much is taken from your paycheck, most people won't have enough by then for medical/living expenses). This is the long-term risk nobody is talking about because they are only concentrating on the short-term. It reminds me of all the people that invested their entire lives into big companies like General Motors thinking they would be around forever and that they would have a pension when they retired. Now they are getting more and more of their benefits taken away. A government is no different. When the majority of your money is being pumped into the system, it becomes almost impossible to diversify your risks, which is scary. I'm just surprised that so many people here can't see this.

by rick888 16y ago

jarek 16y ago

> Why isn't Norway the center for startups? It is a center, per capita. From the full version of the article, http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...: "Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium." You don't hear about it as much because Norway is a relatively small country relatively far away from the U.S. (both geographically and culturally). The lack of Silicon Valley-like echo chamber is also a factor.

rick888 16y ago
Did you read the part about taxes? -50% alone to the federal government. -1% of your total net worth, which is means you may have to pay taxes, even when you have no profits coming in. -Anytime he purchases something, he is charged VAT -They mentioned 25% payroll taxes -This doesn't include local city/state taxes -There are tons of other taxes that aren't even mentioned (property, luxury, etc) After all this, there isn't much left over. At that point, it's almost state capitalism. The state pretty much owns every company. Even better, you can figure out exactly how much anyone makes through the government website. More gems from the article: "When you start buying expensive stuff, people start to talk," says Dalmo. "I have to be careful, because some of the people who are judging are my potential customers." I don't know about you, but I would rather have the added risk of health care than having the government in full control of my business. The unemployment rate is also misleading. Does Norway consider people that are getting government assistance unemployed? "Between workers who do the same job at a given com pany, salaries vary little, if at all. At Wiggo Dalmo's company, everyone doing the same job makes the same salary." Interesting, so I guess skill set doesn't really matter in Norway. A guy with 6 months of experience will be paid the same rate as a guy with 4 years. Some people are alleging that Norway isn't socialist. They are more socialist than I ever thought. "firing an employee for cause typically takes months, and employers generally end up paying at least three months' severance. " More proof that starting a company may be easy, but having a long-term business will be tough. If you are bootstrapping a company, how can you possibly afford this? "The three things we as Americans worry about—education, retirement, and medical expenses—are things that Norwegians don't worry about," Norwegians are putting all of their eggs in one basket, which is riskier than anything in my mind. They are under the impression that their government will be around to pay for all of their medical expenses in 30-40 years when they want to finally retire. What happens if the system collapses during that time? Since the majority of your money is going into the system, you won't nearly have enough to pay out of your pocket. "Even if Nordlaks made no profits, paid no dividends, and paid its owner no salary, Berg would owe the Norwegian government a third of a million dollars a year. "Every year, I have to take a dividend, just to pay the tax," he says, sounding genuinely angry." I'm amazed that people actually put up with this. I would have left that county asap.

stevenbedrick 16y ago

> Norwegians now have a sense of entitlement. You say that like it's a bad thing. One could say that us Americans have a "sense of entitlement" about things like clean drinking water, functioning emergency services, and a publicly-funded education system; alternatively, one could just as easily say that we have a set of baseline expectations about the sorts of things that a modern society is supposed to provide to its citizens (in exchange for taxes, etc.). It sounds like Norwegians have a different idea of where that baseline should be. > It all depends on what you want. If you want an easier start, but have your overall potential income limited, start a company in Norway. If you want a riskier start, with less limits in the long-run, start your company in the US. OK, fair enough, but again- remember why it is that you care one way or the other about how big your "overall potential income" is. There comes a point where you've got enough to live luxuriously, have all your material wants satisfied, and basically do whatever you want on a day-to-day basis- is there a point to accumulating more than that? From the article, and from what other posters on this thread have said, it sure sounds like the "limited" potential income level in Norway is still quite high, by any rational standard, so what does it matter? After five or six million dollars per year, would an increase actually impact your life in a noticeable way? By the way, I'm speaking from a strictly pragmatic standpoint here, not an idealogical one- some people see this as a moral issue, and that's not where I'm going here. I'm basically saying, "if my income is X millions of dollars, why do I care if the government takes half of that and I only have .5X?" Especially since I know that, by giving up that money, I'm ensuring that my neighbors and employees don't have to worry about medical costs and will be able to retire comfortably? Past a certain point, can you really spend more? And if you do, will it make you happy? Of course, I should point out that this is all very easy for me to say, seeing as I never have and probably never will earn enough to face this question personally. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were rich, who knows.

jarek 16y ago
> I'm basically saying, "if my income is X millions of dollars, why do I care if the government takes half of that and I only have .5X?" As I understand it, he fundamentally believes he should be the one making the decision what to do with X dollars he earns -- including potentially distributing it as charity -- rather than a government. I don't agree with this position, but it's fairly consistent.

robryan 16y ago

Might have something to do with the wages and benefits they are getting from employment along with what sounded like great job security in the article. This tax system is really only taking a large chunk if you have a lot to begin with, so I don't think you are going to lose your freedom because of it.

rick888 16y ago
"This tax system is really only taking a large chunk if you have a lot to begin with, so I don't think you are going to lose your freedom because of it." The tax system will prevent everyone from getting a large amount and taking a large chunk from the people making a large amount. Even if you have money just sitting in a bank account with 0% interest, you are still taxed every year on that money (IE: your net worth, which is explained in the article). It has created entire generations of people reliant on government services. I just hope the same system is around in 30 or 40 years or all that money will be gone (and since so much is taken from your paycheck, most people won't have enough by then for medical/living expenses). This is the long-term risk nobody is talking about because they are only concentrating on the short-term. It reminds me of all the people that invested their entire lives into big companies like General Motors thinking they would be around forever and that they would have a pension when they retired. Now they are getting more and more of their benefits taken away. A government is no different. When the majority of your money is being pumped into the system, it becomes almost impossible to diversify your risks, which is scary. I'm just surprised that so many people here can't see this.