5 ms·

> I’m no catch, but there are probably a half dozen people I know who I would date & who would date me if communication opened up. (I know this empirically: the

by _bxg1 7y ago

> I’m no catch, but there are probably a half dozen people I know who I would date & who would date me if communication opened up. (I know this empirically: there was a short period in college where I hit on everyone, and while I stopped because I realized I was probably making a lot of people uncomfortable, I ended up having a casual thing going with about ten young women simultaneously — and this was back when I was broke, out of shape, and the special kind of dumb that only college students can afford to be.) It sounds, friend, like you have a misguided (outsized) sense of nobility. You aren't wrong about what women put up with in our society, but you also can't write off any initiative by you at all as dangerous. Your own anecdote shows that when you put yourself out there, plenty of people have interest in you and don't feel the need to run for the hills. It's admirable how hard you're trying not to be a part of the problem, but don't make yourself a martyr. After a certain point, it isn't helping anybody. I'm sure striking the right balance is much more difficult for someone who has trouble picking up on social cues, but it's just a matter of trying it out and learning the curve. Maybe you could practice with or ask advice from women you know platonically? You said you're friends with most of your exes- maybe they can give you insight into how you came off in those relationships? It's a big and complicated world out there. It's good to try and be sensitive to others, but you can't let yourself get totally buried by worry about how you'll affect them. You just have to do your best, and then apologize if you mess up. And that's okay. You have it in you to grow past this and find a companion. Everyone deserves to be loved. Best of luck.

mewpmewp2 7y ago
It is as simple as you ask a woman out who you are interested in. If she ignores you or says no, you move on. If she keeps saying yes to your date invitations it means she likes you. Avoiding or being scared of making the first move is very unattractive and shows extreme lack of confidence and confidence is the most attractive trait.
- throwlaplace 7y ago
  >It is as simple as you ask a woman out who you are interested in No it's not that simple. Some women are propositioned so often that it becomes a trial just to be out. Time and place are important too.
  - mewpmewp2 7y ago
    Which women and how often?
    - throwlaplace 7y ago
      Do you have women friends? Ask them.
      - mewpmewp2 7y ago
        I have a woman, as well as I have talked to women and if I have picked up anything it is that many of them consider modern men to lack initiative. It is actually easy to stand out by being straight forward and confident. Just don't be pushy and accept rejections gracefully.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    I rarely admit this to people, but when I was 19, I paid $700 to go to a weekend "PUA convention" like what Tom Cruise caricaturizes in the movie Magnolia. The eye-opening part for me was when we broke out in small groups, went downtown in Austin, and the group leader (employees of the event) cold-approached women with a level of success I only thought was possible in Hugh Grant movies and reserved for nobody other than Hugh Grant in real life. And my group leader was a 39yo bald guy. Most of the "wisdom" around approaching women are simply superstition and self-sabotage. "No, there's no way that could work so I won't even try."
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      See, this kind of thing seems like it would actually start to enter the territory that the OP is terrified of. Confidence is essential, yes, but you can be confident and also be considerate. Setting aside the plethora of things wrong with a "PUA convention", your group leader probably made lots of women very uncomfortable. There's a difference between taking initiative in a context where women are actively looking for those kinds of interactions, and taking initiative randomly on the street.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  Several things you just said are dramatically oversimplified.
  - mcv 7y ago
    That's unavoidable when you tackle such a complex topic in two lines. But he's right that confidence is attractive. Of course that can be dangerous too; it's what con-men rely on. So it's a balance. But too much lack of confidence is a problem too.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      You can have infinite confidence and still be kind/sensitive/considerate. The two are independent axes, and both are important (and attractive).
      - username90 7y ago
        > You can have infinite confidence and still be kind/sensitive/considerate. How is this possible? Infinite confidence would mean that you think it is impossible that you aren't right and therefore others must be wrong when they disagree or reject you. I can't see such a person being kind, sensitive or considerate.
        _bxg1 7y ago
        Confidence means you aren't pushed around by the world; sensitivity means you willingly open yourself up and pay attention to the world around you, and take it into consideration. The difference is nuanced, but very important. In some ways confidence empowers a person to be kinder and more considerate. Not that they will be automatically, but they have more opportunity to be. Someone who lacks true confidence is naturally on the defensive, always having to think about how to prop up their own standing. More often than not, people who come off as brash and pushy are actually doing so out of a deep insecurity that they're trying to satisfy.
        mcv 7y ago
username90 7y ago
Taking initiative is exhausting, especially if you are very introverted like a lot of people are in tech. This means that you are unlikely to try a lot of girls, so you'll go with the first one who says yes, thus very likely ending up in a horrible relationship. There are of course some very introverted men who end up in good loving relationships, but I believe they are a tiny minority. Your odds could get improved if you were exceptional in some way, but if you are just a typical person then good luck.
- throwlaplace 7y ago
  >Taking initiative is exhausting, especially if you are very introverted like a lot of people are in tech. This reads like an indictment of... Something. But what? Should there be public policy that helps socially awkward men mate like there's public policy that helps disabled people access public services? Yes it's challenging to be different from normal. Welcome to the privilege discussion. Now that you're here what do you think our priorities should be?
  - username90 7y ago
    It isn't an indictment, it is just an observation. > Now that you're here what do you think our priorities should be? Personally I'm fine being alone, both my parents were in multiple extremely toxic marriages so I feel no need to get into one myself.
  - ta11235813 7y ago
    A reasonable ask seems to be for society to provide resources to help people learn to overcome the challenge and an environment where they are able to. After all, the point of society is to allow its members to meet their needs.
    - throwlaplace 7y ago
      you're not wrong. i can't help but wonder whether you (and anyone else who agrees) extends this kind of consideration to all of the abnormal people that move through the world. i posted the comment that you responded to because it's an opportunity for people to sympathize.
gnode 7y ago
> It's admirable how hard you're trying not to be a part of the problem, but don't make yourself a martyr. I find myself sceptical of whether this is altruism, or a justifying righteousness to explain fear of embarrassment or rejection.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  It doesn't have to be either/or. I myself have dealt with a crippling fear of being a bad person in other arenas. It's a cyclical complex of self-distrust with a sense of righteousness as the driving force pushing you downward, which makes it very hard to uproot. On that note: therapy is great, too.

by _bxg1 7y ago

mewpmewp2 7y ago

It is as simple as you ask a woman out who you are interested in. If she ignores you or says no, you move on. If she keeps saying yes to your date invitations it means she likes you. Avoiding or being scared of making the first move is very unattractive and shows extreme lack of confidence and confidence is the most attractive trait.

throwlaplace 7y ago
>It is as simple as you ask a woman out who you are interested in No it's not that simple. Some women are propositioned so often that it becomes a trial just to be out. Time and place are important too.
- mewpmewp2 7y ago
  Which women and how often?
  - throwlaplace 7y ago
    Do you have women friends? Ask them.
    - mewpmewp2 7y ago
      I have a woman, as well as I have talked to women and if I have picked up anything it is that many of them consider modern men to lack initiative. It is actually easy to stand out by being straight forward and confident. Just don't be pushy and accept rejections gracefully.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  I rarely admit this to people, but when I was 19, I paid $700 to go to a weekend "PUA convention" like what Tom Cruise caricaturizes in the movie Magnolia. The eye-opening part for me was when we broke out in small groups, went downtown in Austin, and the group leader (employees of the event) cold-approached women with a level of success I only thought was possible in Hugh Grant movies and reserved for nobody other than Hugh Grant in real life. And my group leader was a 39yo bald guy. Most of the "wisdom" around approaching women are simply superstition and self-sabotage. "No, there's no way that could work so I won't even try."
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    See, this kind of thing seems like it would actually start to enter the territory that the OP is terrified of. Confidence is essential, yes, but you can be confident and also be considerate. Setting aside the plethora of things wrong with a "PUA convention", your group leader probably made lots of women very uncomfortable. There's a difference between taking initiative in a context where women are actively looking for those kinds of interactions, and taking initiative randomly on the street.
_bxg1 7y ago
Several things you just said are dramatically oversimplified.
- mcv 7y ago
  That's unavoidable when you tackle such a complex topic in two lines. But he's right that confidence is attractive. Of course that can be dangerous too; it's what con-men rely on. So it's a balance. But too much lack of confidence is a problem too.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    You can have infinite confidence and still be kind/sensitive/considerate. The two are independent axes, and both are important (and attractive).
    - username90 7y ago
      > You can have infinite confidence and still be kind/sensitive/considerate. How is this possible? Infinite confidence would mean that you think it is impossible that you aren't right and therefore others must be wrong when they disagree or reject you. I can't see such a person being kind, sensitive or considerate.
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        Confidence means you aren't pushed around by the world; sensitivity means you willingly open yourself up and pay attention to the world around you, and take it into consideration. The difference is nuanced, but very important. In some ways confidence empowers a person to be kinder and more considerate. Not that they will be automatically, but they have more opportunity to be. Someone who lacks true confidence is naturally on the defensive, always having to think about how to prop up their own standing. More often than not, people who come off as brash and pushy are actually doing so out of a deep insecurity that they're trying to satisfy.
      - mcv 7y ago

username90 7y ago

Taking initiative is exhausting, especially if you are very introverted like a lot of people are in tech. This means that you are unlikely to try a lot of girls, so you'll go with the first one who says yes, thus very likely ending up in a horrible relationship. There are of course some very introverted men who end up in good loving relationships, but I believe they are a tiny minority. Your odds could get improved if you were exceptional in some way, but if you are just a typical person then good luck.

throwlaplace 7y ago
>Taking initiative is exhausting, especially if you are very introverted like a lot of people are in tech. This reads like an indictment of... Something. But what? Should there be public policy that helps socially awkward men mate like there's public policy that helps disabled people access public services? Yes it's challenging to be different from normal. Welcome to the privilege discussion. Now that you're here what do you think our priorities should be?
- username90 7y ago
  It isn't an indictment, it is just an observation. > Now that you're here what do you think our priorities should be? Personally I'm fine being alone, both my parents were in multiple extremely toxic marriages so I feel no need to get into one myself.
- ta11235813 7y ago
  A reasonable ask seems to be for society to provide resources to help people learn to overcome the challenge and an environment where they are able to. After all, the point of society is to allow its members to meet their needs.
  - throwlaplace 7y ago
    you're not wrong. i can't help but wonder whether you (and anyone else who agrees) extends this kind of consideration to all of the abnormal people that move through the world. i posted the comment that you responded to because it's an opportunity for people to sympathize.

gnode 7y ago

> It's admirable how hard you're trying not to be a part of the problem, but don't make yourself a martyr. I find myself sceptical of whether this is altruism, or a justifying righteousness to explain fear of embarrassment or rejection.

_bxg1 7y ago
It doesn't have to be either/or. I myself have dealt with a crippling fear of being a bad person in other arenas. It's a cyclical complex of self-distrust with a sense of righteousness as the driving force pushing you downward, which makes it very hard to uproot. On that note: therapy is great, too.