8 ms·

I'm one of the most staunch Apple supporters but even I must admit that since WWDC 2019, I have spent more time fighting Apple's bugs than actually using any of

I'm one of the most staunch Apple supporters but even I must admit that since WWDC 2019, I have spent more time fighting Apple's bugs than actually using any of the new features...or the old features that used to work flawlessly (like iTunes/Music.) Not just on the user side, but the developer end as well. Perfectly valid code which used to work up till Xcode 11.1 throws errors inside the Swift runtime or toolchain on Xcode 11.2 (and 11.2.1). Even the Swift engineers on the official forums don't seem to know what you can or can't do with the new language features. And after seeing bugs I reported eons ago still not fixed, it feels futile to even bother reporting them anymore. It's still not quite bad enough to make me want to flee back to Windows or switch to Android, but it does make me depressed, like there's nothing left in the world that "just works", except maybe my Nintendo Switch.

machello13 7y ago
> Perfectly valid code that used to work up till Xcode 11.1 throws errors in the Swift runtime on Xcode 11.2 (and 11.2.1) Can you link to some examples? I write Swift full time and haven't noticed anything like this.
- theFluke 7y ago
  Here's an example that I encountered recently: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58657087/after-upgrading-to-xcode-11-2-from-xcode-11-1-app-crashes-due-to-uitextlayoutv https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58657087/after-upgrading...
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    To be fair, that's not an issue in the Swift runtime.
  - dep_b 7y ago
    That version of Xcode has been pulled because of this issue.
- Razengan 7y ago
  Type metadata accessor / failed to demangle superclass from mangled name: https://forums.swift.org/t/xcode-11-2-runtime-error-type-metadata-accessor-failed-to-demangle-superclass-from-mangled-name/30604 https://forums.swift.org/t/xcode-11-2-runtime-error-type-met... Property Wrapper initializers with #file/#function: https://forums.swift.org/t/compiler-segmentation-fault-when-using-property-wrappers-to-log-changes-to-a-value/30732 https://forums.swift.org/t/compiler-segmentation-fault-when-... With the disconnect between the Swift team and Apple after Swift going open-source, it's not clear if these goblins are spawned inside of Apple's APIs or the Swift runtime.
jamil7 7y ago
About 10 minutes ago I had XCode 11.2 crash from a line of swift code I wrote without compiling. I had to go into vim and delete the line because XCode would crash each time I tried to reopen. I hope it all gets smoothed out since there are some nice new tools worth looking into. But the constant bugs and crashes make it hard for me to get excited.
- zionic 7y ago
  FYI, Xcode 11.2.1 is out and fixes several issues.
  - novaRom 7y ago
    and introduces some new. Seriously, why don't they open source it? There are so many so bad security issues in Apple software last years.
    - kick 7y ago
      What incentive do they have to free it? Morals don't count. There's no incentive, so they won't. That Apple freely releases anything is tied directly to Stallman resisting Jobs's snow jobs during the '90s, and later Jobs's Flash snuff.
      - Razengan 7y ago
        > That Apple freely releases anything is tied directly to Stallman resisting Jobs's snowjobs during the '90s, and later Jobs's Flash snuff. What does this mean?
        kick 7y ago
        One of the excuses Jobs used for not putting Flash on the iPhone was that it was closed-source, and that he believed that web standards should always be "open-source." This was a convenient excuse to snuff Adobe that he only got to use because Webkit was LGPL'd (by KDE's doing, not Apple's), but it did stop critics from complaining as much. Most free software that Apple has released around the web was because of this. Jobs was notorious for snowing out free software people. If you don't know what that means: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snow%20job https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snow%20job A primary example was when Jobs tried to convince Stallman to allow NeXT to break the GPL, Stallman resisted, and a bit of NeXT got released under a GPL-compatible license. From a mail exchange between him and the developer of clisp: I say this based on discussions I had with our lawyer long ago. The issue first arose when NeXT proposed to distribute a modified GCC in two parts and let the user link them. Jobs asked me whether this was lawful. It seemed to me at the time that it was, following reasoning like what you are using; but since the result was very undesirable for free software, I said I would have to ask the lawyer. What the lawyer said surprised me; he said that judges would consider such schemes to be "subterfuges" and would be very harsh toward them. He said a judge would ask whether it is "really" one program, rather than how it is labeled. So I went back to Jobs and said we believed his plan was not allowed by the GPL. The direct result of this is that we now have an Objective C front end. They had wanted to distribute the Objective C parser as a separate proprietary package to link with the GCC back end, but since I didn't agree this was allowed, they made it free. So I don't think the GPL actually requires a correction for this. But perhaps it would be a good idea to add a note explaining this.
gman83 7y ago
I guess you haven't had Joy-Con drift :)
- Razengan 7y ago
  Ohhh yes, now you made me even more depressed. But at least the Switch OS has no oopsies (that I've seen.) :) My [New] 3DS has also been rock solid for years, hardware and software.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    The 3DS did have that issue where the lower half of the device could scratch the upper screen. But I never minded much, because they kept replacing my 3DS because of the scratches, and back then, your 1-year warranty would reset every time a repair was done. So I just kept sending it in, and kept getting a brand new 3DS every year...
  - sli 7y ago
    Horizon has a broken exFAT implementation that can corrupt SD cards. Normally it only affects people running homebrew, but it can also be triggered by eShop games (Pokemon Sw/Sh was in the news for this recently). Some would consider the lack of folders an oopsie but that's probably not what you're referring to. 3DS is indeed a damn solid device, though. Nintendo did really well with it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Razengan 7y ago
      Thanks for the heads up about Pokémon. Will start backing up my card more often (though I'm not if you can restore them by just copying the data to another card, didn't work the last time I tried it.)
- skuthus 7y ago
  Nintendo has (usually) made good on their mistakes - I don't know of any other company who does direct exchanges and gives checks back for broken hardware like Nintendo. The Joy-Con drift is embarrassing
kenshi 7y ago
Why be a "staunch <Company X> supporter" at all? It's one thing to admire the work/output of a company, but once you identify as a "Company X" supporter you are just closing yourself off to being critical of "Company X". I cringe at every WWDC session when people applaud for minor features (new themes in Xcode!) and long overdue bug fixes. I am embarrassed whenever someone online talks about a problem they have with Apple hardware or software, and they are met with passive-aggressive replies along the lines of "I've never seen that problem, what are you doing wrong..." I develop for and use Apple platforms. I really like some things they have done, but I'd never consider myself an "Apple supporter". I'm the customer, they are the vendor. They are here to support me. If they don't do a good job at that, I'll try to find another company to take their place. Also companies change, as do their priorities. There was once a period in when MS were making the best internet browser (really)...
- Razengan 7y ago
  > Why be a "staunch <Company X> supporter" at all? Because they consistently make what I want to see. For example SwiftUI, which I had been waiting for my entire life. Call it the lesser evil, compared to my experience with other companies, if that's more acceptable for you. Here's a funny observation: I have 20+ upvotes on my previous comment criticizing Apple, but a negative score for the supportive statements on this one. So you see, some people will staunchly attempt to bury anything remotely positive about something they begrudge, so others feel they have to balance that out. :)
  - kbenson 7y ago
    Likely because you can like a company, or portions of their output, without being a "staunch supporter", depending on your interpretation of what that even means. I think most people are interpreting being a staunch supporter with ignoring their shortcomings. You may not mean it that way, and may correctly criticize them for their missteps (it sounds like you do, since you reference criticism), but if people interpret this comment as defense of defending Apple in all circumstances, then they're likely to down vote. I think this is less a case of people being too for or against a company, and more people interpreting the same statement differently depending on their own context.
arcticbull 7y ago
Hate to break it to you but iTunes never worked flawlessly. It's always been a smoldering tire-fire.
- Razengan 7y ago
  but Music has weird behavior that didn't happen in the last few incarnations of iTunes: • Randomly failing to download or not allowing me to download purchases or Apple Music songs that I previously added to my library. • Outright deleting downloads!! without any explanation! • Duplicating downloads, and creating copies of playlists with differences. [0] • Being more aggressive with DRM checks: Once, I had logged into my Apple Music account, then a few hours later I had to turn off my WiFi. It demanded me to connect so my computer could be authorized and wouldn't let me play the downloads. Same with Books. [0] https://i.imgur.com/qNQ9oJI.png https://i.imgur.com/qNQ9oJI.png
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pier25 7y ago
  It worked fine the last time I used it.... in Tiger.
- classified 7y ago
  > It's always been a smoldering tire-fire. That's why it's called iFumes.
jvagner 7y ago
I’m with you. I’ve been saying more and more that if Apple can’t stay strong I don’t really like the alternatives. OSX and iOS were so nice together a few years back. Now they’re out of step and the design and quality aren’t strong. I don’t want Windows, Chromebooks or Android. If not Apple... (Love Linux, use Linux, but it’s not providing what I get from macOS.)
- Razengan 7y ago
  Yes, I might begin preparing a Linux machine for the end times.
- memn0nis 7y ago
  Hey - not related to your comment but wanted to get in touch. You left a note on a previous post of mine about wanting to simplify FTP. I'd love to work on this project and wanted to see if you'd be willing to connect so I can understand the problem better. Feel free to email me at kunal@mightydash.com, and thanks in advance!
dreweckert 7y ago
So did you staunchly support the suicide nets that Apple installed in their factories, or the working conditions that led to the suicides in the first place? Seems like an odd corporation to express "staunch support" of.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21595052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21595052
amluto 7y ago
The Nintendo Switch only “just works” if you have no USB-C peripherals and no more than four costrollers. Other than that, it’s pretty great! (Yes, in my book, the official dock counts as a USB-C peripheral that doesn’t “just work”. I’ve used to of them, and one is severely janky.)
pier25 7y ago
> And after seeing bugs I reported eons ago still not fixed, it feels futile to even bother reporting them anymore. I've reported a number of bugs to WebKit over the years and it's the same thing, none have been fixed. You're lucky to even get an answer from someone in the WK team.

machello13 7y ago

> Perfectly valid code that used to work up till Xcode 11.1 throws errors in the Swift runtime on Xcode 11.2 (and 11.2.1) Can you link to some examples? I write Swift full time and haven't noticed anything like this.

theFluke 7y ago
Here's an example that I encountered recently: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58657087/after-upgrading-to-xcode-11-2-from-xcode-11-1-app-crashes-due-to-uitextlayoutv https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58657087/after-upgrading...
- saagarjha 7y ago
  To be fair, that's not an issue in the Swift runtime.
- dep_b 7y ago
  That version of Xcode has been pulled because of this issue.
Razengan 7y ago
Type metadata accessor / failed to demangle superclass from mangled name: https://forums.swift.org/t/xcode-11-2-runtime-error-type-metadata-accessor-failed-to-demangle-superclass-from-mangled-name/30604 https://forums.swift.org/t/xcode-11-2-runtime-error-type-met... Property Wrapper initializers with #file/#function: https://forums.swift.org/t/compiler-segmentation-fault-when-using-property-wrappers-to-log-changes-to-a-value/30732 https://forums.swift.org/t/compiler-segmentation-fault-when-... With the disconnect between the Swift team and Apple after Swift going open-source, it's not clear if these goblins are spawned inside of Apple's APIs or the Swift runtime.

jamil7 7y ago

About 10 minutes ago I had XCode 11.2 crash from a line of swift code I wrote without compiling. I had to go into vim and delete the line because XCode would crash each time I tried to reopen. I hope it all gets smoothed out since there are some nice new tools worth looking into. But the constant bugs and crashes make it hard for me to get excited.

zionic 7y ago
FYI, Xcode 11.2.1 is out and fixes several issues.
- novaRom 7y ago
  and introduces some new. Seriously, why don't they open source it? There are so many so bad security issues in Apple software last years.
  - kick 7y ago
    What incentive do they have to free it? Morals don't count. There's no incentive, so they won't. That Apple freely releases anything is tied directly to Stallman resisting Jobs's snow jobs during the '90s, and later Jobs's Flash snuff.
    - Razengan 7y ago
      > That Apple freely releases anything is tied directly to Stallman resisting Jobs's snowjobs during the '90s, and later Jobs's Flash snuff. What does this mean?
      - kick 7y ago
        One of the excuses Jobs used for not putting Flash on the iPhone was that it was closed-source, and that he believed that web standards should always be "open-source." This was a convenient excuse to snuff Adobe that he only got to use because Webkit was LGPL'd (by KDE's doing, not Apple's), but it did stop critics from complaining as much. Most free software that Apple has released around the web was because of this. Jobs was notorious for snowing out free software people. If you don't know what that means: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snow%20job https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snow%20job A primary example was when Jobs tried to convince Stallman to allow NeXT to break the GPL, Stallman resisted, and a bit of NeXT got released under a GPL-compatible license. From a mail exchange between him and the developer of clisp: I say this based on discussions I had with our lawyer long ago. The issue first arose when NeXT proposed to distribute a modified GCC in two parts and let the user link them. Jobs asked me whether this was lawful. It seemed to me at the time that it was, following reasoning like what you are using; but since the result was very undesirable for free software, I said I would have to ask the lawyer. What the lawyer said surprised me; he said that judges would consider such schemes to be "subterfuges" and would be very harsh toward them. He said a judge would ask whether it is "really" one program, rather than how it is labeled. So I went back to Jobs and said we believed his plan was not allowed by the GPL. The direct result of this is that we now have an Objective C front end. They had wanted to distribute the Objective C parser as a separate proprietary package to link with the GCC back end, but since I didn't agree this was allowed, they made it free. So I don't think the GPL actually requires a correction for this. But perhaps it would be a good idea to add a note explaining this.

gman83 7y ago

I guess you haven't had Joy-Con drift :)

Razengan 7y ago
Ohhh yes, now you made me even more depressed. But at least the Switch OS has no oopsies (that I've seen.) :) My [New] 3DS has also been rock solid for years, hardware and software.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  The 3DS did have that issue where the lower half of the device could scratch the upper screen. But I never minded much, because they kept replacing my 3DS because of the scratches, and back then, your 1-year warranty would reset every time a repair was done. So I just kept sending it in, and kept getting a brand new 3DS every year...
- sli 7y ago
  Horizon has a broken exFAT implementation that can corrupt SD cards. Normally it only affects people running homebrew, but it can also be triggered by eShop games (Pokemon Sw/Sh was in the news for this recently). Some would consider the lack of folders an oopsie but that's probably not what you're referring to. 3DS is indeed a damn solid device, though. Nintendo did really well with it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Razengan 7y ago
    Thanks for the heads up about Pokémon. Will start backing up my card more often (though I'm not if you can restore them by just copying the data to another card, didn't work the last time I tried it.)
skuthus 7y ago
Nintendo has (usually) made good on their mistakes - I don't know of any other company who does direct exchanges and gives checks back for broken hardware like Nintendo. The Joy-Con drift is embarrassing

kenshi 7y ago

Why be a "staunch <Company X> supporter" at all? It's one thing to admire the work/output of a company, but once you identify as a "Company X" supporter you are just closing yourself off to being critical of "Company X". I cringe at every WWDC session when people applaud for minor features (new themes in Xcode!) and long overdue bug fixes. I am embarrassed whenever someone online talks about a problem they have with Apple hardware or software, and they are met with passive-aggressive replies along the lines of "I've never seen that problem, what are you doing wrong..." I develop for and use Apple platforms. I really like some things they have done, but I'd never consider myself an "Apple supporter". I'm the customer, they are the vendor. They are here to support me. If they don't do a good job at that, I'll try to find another company to take their place. Also companies change, as do their priorities. There was once a period in when MS were making the best internet browser (really)...

Razengan 7y ago
> Why be a "staunch <Company X> supporter" at all? Because they consistently make what I want to see. For example SwiftUI, which I had been waiting for my entire life. Call it the lesser evil, compared to my experience with other companies, if that's more acceptable for you. Here's a funny observation: I have 20+ upvotes on my previous comment criticizing Apple, but a negative score for the supportive statements on this one. So you see, some people will staunchly attempt to bury anything remotely positive about something they begrudge, so others feel they have to balance that out. :)
- kbenson 7y ago
  Likely because you can like a company, or portions of their output, without being a "staunch supporter", depending on your interpretation of what that even means. I think most people are interpreting being a staunch supporter with ignoring their shortcomings. You may not mean it that way, and may correctly criticize them for their missteps (it sounds like you do, since you reference criticism), but if people interpret this comment as defense of defending Apple in all circumstances, then they're likely to down vote. I think this is less a case of people being too for or against a company, and more people interpreting the same statement differently depending on their own context.

arcticbull 7y ago

Hate to break it to you but iTunes never worked flawlessly. It's always been a smoldering tire-fire.

Razengan 7y ago
but Music has weird behavior that didn't happen in the last few incarnations of iTunes: • Randomly failing to download or not allowing me to download purchases or Apple Music songs that I previously added to my library. • Outright deleting downloads!! without any explanation! • Duplicating downloads, and creating copies of playlists with differences. [0] • Being more aggressive with DRM checks: Once, I had logged into my Apple Music account, then a few hours later I had to turn off my WiFi. It demanded me to connect so my computer could be authorized and wouldn't let me play the downloads. Same with Books. [0] https://i.imgur.com/qNQ9oJI.png https://i.imgur.com/qNQ9oJI.png
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pier25 7y ago
It worked fine the last time I used it.... in Tiger.
classified 7y ago
> It's always been a smoldering tire-fire. That's why it's called iFumes.

jvagner 7y ago

I’m with you. I’ve been saying more and more that if Apple can’t stay strong I don’t really like the alternatives. OSX and iOS were so nice together a few years back. Now they’re out of step and the design and quality aren’t strong. I don’t want Windows, Chromebooks or Android. If not Apple... (Love Linux, use Linux, but it’s not providing what I get from macOS.)

Razengan 7y ago
Yes, I might begin preparing a Linux machine for the end times.
memn0nis 7y ago
Hey - not related to your comment but wanted to get in touch. You left a note on a previous post of mine about wanting to simplify FTP. I'd love to work on this project and wanted to see if you'd be willing to connect so I can understand the problem better. Feel free to email me at kunal@mightydash.com, and thanks in advance!

dreweckert 7y ago

So did you staunchly support the suicide nets that Apple installed in their factories, or the working conditions that led to the suicides in the first place? Seems like an odd corporation to express "staunch support" of.

saagarjha 7y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21595052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21595052

amluto 7y ago

The Nintendo Switch only “just works” if you have no USB-C peripherals and no more than four costrollers. Other than that, it’s pretty great! (Yes, in my book, the official dock counts as a USB-C peripheral that doesn’t “just work”. I’ve used to of them, and one is severely janky.)

pier25 7y ago

> And after seeing bugs I reported eons ago still not fixed, it feels futile to even bother reporting them anymore. I've reported a number of bugs to WebKit over the years and it's the same thing, none have been fixed. You're lucky to even get an answer from someone in the WK team.