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> Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yoursel

> Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about. Here in the US, a lot of the things from which we'd like to be "free" from (living in fear of health care-related bankruptcy, having to beg a boss for an extra week of vacation, being limited to absurdly short and unpaid (ma|pa)ternity leave periods, etc.) come with a hefty price tag, and as such are associated with (and often thought of as proxies for) having a lot of money. In a place like Norway, many of the things that that we Americans see as perks afforded to only the wealthiest of individuals are instead thought of as baseline facts of life. Is it so surprising, then, that people whose world-views are shaped by such a system don't have the same difficulties at disentangling financial cause and effect that we Americans have? They say that "past a certain point, money's just a way of keeping score," and it sounds to me as though that point is a lot lower in a place like Norway than it is here in the US. As an experiment, let's try formulating it (semi)-logically (it's been a while since I had logic, so if I'm getting this wrong, please let me know): if (has lots of money) -> (freedom from financial catastrophe, and lots of social perks) In the US, the inverse is true: not (has lots of money) -> not (freedom from financial catastrophe, lots of social perks, etc.) Because of how our system is set up, the converse is also typically true: if (freedom from financial catastrophe, lots of social perks) -> (has lots of money) This leads us to conclude that there's an inevitable relationship between having lots of money and having the freedom that you talk about. In Norway, however, the system is different, and it doesn't sound like the aforementioned inverse relationship between money and freedom is true: since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, educational benefits, etc. all without having tons of money. Since there are different "givens", it's not surprising that Norwegians have arrived at different conclusions and attitudes towards money. QED?

rick888 16y ago
"No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about." You need money though. So directly or indirectly, money is always a factor. "since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, educational benefits, etc. all without having tons of money." Well, you had that money, it just went to the government instead of your pocket. The choices you could have made with that money are now gone. Once you are an established company in the US, you could afford those benefits yourself (which is more efficient because rather than paying for all healthcare, you can figure out what will work for your company). For many non-web related business, it will make it that much more difficult. If you need to spend money on physical goods and your profit margin is razor thin, huge taxes aren't going to make it easier. If you have a business that doesn't scale well with one person (IE: a tech business where you need to hire more employees quickly), the increased employee taxes and requirements might make it an impossibility to continue (if you have no funding). So, it might help with web businesses that can scale well with one employee or ones that are funded by VC. I wonder how many people are actually bootstrapping a company there. "Since there are different "givens", it's not surprising that Norwegians have arrived at different conclusions and attitudes towards money. QED?" Norwegians now have a sense of entitlement. It all depends on what you want. If you want an easier start, but have your overall potential income limited, start a company in Norway. If you want a riskier start, with less limits in the long-run, start your company in the US. I still have to wonder. If this was such a great system, why aren't more people starting companies? There is no risk, right? Why isn't Norway the center for startups?
- jarek 16y ago
  > Why isn't Norway the center for startups? It is a center, per capita. From the full version of the article, http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...: "Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium." You don't hear about it as much because Norway is a relatively small country relatively far away from the U.S. (both geographically and culturally). The lack of Silicon Valley-like echo chamber is also a factor.
  - rick888 16y ago
    Did you read the part about taxes? -50% alone to the federal government. -1% of your total net worth, which is means you may have to pay taxes, even when you have no profits coming in. -Anytime he purchases something, he is charged VAT -They mentioned 25% payroll taxes -This doesn't include local city/state taxes -There are tons of other taxes that aren't even mentioned (property, luxury, etc) After all this, there isn't much left over. At that point, it's almost state capitalism. The state pretty much owns every company. Even better, you can figure out exactly how much anyone makes through the government website. More gems from the article: "When you start buying expensive stuff, people start to talk," says Dalmo. "I have to be careful, because some of the people who are judging are my potential customers." I don't know about you, but I would rather have the added risk of health care than having the government in full control of my business. The unemployment rate is also misleading. Does Norway consider people that are getting government assistance unemployed? "Between workers who do the same job at a given com pany, salaries vary little, if at all. At Wiggo Dalmo's company, everyone doing the same job makes the same salary." Interesting, so I guess skill set doesn't really matter in Norway. A guy with 6 months of experience will be paid the same rate as a guy with 4 years. Some people are alleging that Norway isn't socialist. They are more socialist than I ever thought. "firing an employee for cause typically takes months, and employers generally end up paying at least three months' severance. " More proof that starting a company may be easy, but having a long-term business will be tough. If you are bootstrapping a company, how can you possibly afford this? "The three things we as Americans worry about—education, retirement, and medical expenses—are things that Norwegians don't worry about," Norwegians are putting all of their eggs in one basket, which is riskier than anything in my mind. They are under the impression that their government will be around to pay for all of their medical expenses in 30-40 years when they want to finally retire. What happens if the system collapses during that time? Since the majority of your money is going into the system, you won't nearly have enough to pay out of your pocket. "Even if Nordlaks made no profits, paid no dividends, and paid its owner no salary, Berg would owe the Norwegian government a third of a million dollars a year. "Every year, I have to take a dividend, just to pay the tax," he says, sounding genuinely angry." I'm amazed that people actually put up with this. I would have left that county asap.
stevenbedrick 16y ago
Edit: just noticed, it should say "the aforementioned inverse of the money/freedom relationship", not "the aforementioned inverse relationship".

rick888 16y ago

"No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about." You need money though. So directly or indirectly, money is always a factor. "since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, educational benefits, etc. all without having tons of money." Well, you had that money, it just went to the government instead of your pocket. The choices you could have made with that money are now gone. Once you are an established company in the US, you could afford those benefits yourself (which is more efficient because rather than paying for all healthcare, you can figure out what will work for your company). For many non-web related business, it will make it that much more difficult. If you need to spend money on physical goods and your profit margin is razor thin, huge taxes aren't going to make it easier. If you have a business that doesn't scale well with one person (IE: a tech business where you need to hire more employees quickly), the increased employee taxes and requirements might make it an impossibility to continue (if you have no funding). So, it might help with web businesses that can scale well with one employee or ones that are funded by VC. I wonder how many people are actually bootstrapping a company there. "Since there are different "givens", it's not surprising that Norwegians have arrived at different conclusions and attitudes towards money. QED?" Norwegians now have a sense of entitlement. It all depends on what you want. If you want an easier start, but have your overall potential income limited, start a company in Norway. If you want a riskier start, with less limits in the long-run, start your company in the US. I still have to wonder. If this was such a great system, why aren't more people starting companies? There is no risk, right? Why isn't Norway the center for startups?

jarek 16y ago
> Why isn't Norway the center for startups? It is a center, per capita. From the full version of the article, http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...: "Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium." You don't hear about it as much because Norway is a relatively small country relatively far away from the U.S. (both geographically and culturally). The lack of Silicon Valley-like echo chamber is also a factor.
- rick888 16y ago
  Did you read the part about taxes? -50% alone to the federal government. -1% of your total net worth, which is means you may have to pay taxes, even when you have no profits coming in. -Anytime he purchases something, he is charged VAT -They mentioned 25% payroll taxes -This doesn't include local city/state taxes -There are tons of other taxes that aren't even mentioned (property, luxury, etc) After all this, there isn't much left over. At that point, it's almost state capitalism. The state pretty much owns every company. Even better, you can figure out exactly how much anyone makes through the government website. More gems from the article: "When you start buying expensive stuff, people start to talk," says Dalmo. "I have to be careful, because some of the people who are judging are my potential customers." I don't know about you, but I would rather have the added risk of health care than having the government in full control of my business. The unemployment rate is also misleading. Does Norway consider people that are getting government assistance unemployed? "Between workers who do the same job at a given com pany, salaries vary little, if at all. At Wiggo Dalmo's company, everyone doing the same job makes the same salary." Interesting, so I guess skill set doesn't really matter in Norway. A guy with 6 months of experience will be paid the same rate as a guy with 4 years. Some people are alleging that Norway isn't socialist. They are more socialist than I ever thought. "firing an employee for cause typically takes months, and employers generally end up paying at least three months' severance. " More proof that starting a company may be easy, but having a long-term business will be tough. If you are bootstrapping a company, how can you possibly afford this? "The three things we as Americans worry about—education, retirement, and medical expenses—are things that Norwegians don't worry about," Norwegians are putting all of their eggs in one basket, which is riskier than anything in my mind. They are under the impression that their government will be around to pay for all of their medical expenses in 30-40 years when they want to finally retire. What happens if the system collapses during that time? Since the majority of your money is going into the system, you won't nearly have enough to pay out of your pocket. "Even if Nordlaks made no profits, paid no dividends, and paid its owner no salary, Berg would owe the Norwegian government a third of a million dollars a year. "Every year, I have to take a dividend, just to pay the tax," he says, sounding genuinely angry." I'm amazed that people actually put up with this. I would have left that county asap.

stevenbedrick 16y ago

Edit: just noticed, it should say "the aforementioned inverse of the money/freedom relationship", not "the aforementioned inverse relationship".