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I know your point was specifically about young men, but this is one of the things that keeps women from doing startups. I'm young, healthy, female, and doing a

I know your point was specifically about young men, but this is one of the things that keeps women from doing startups. I'm young, healthy, female, and doing a startup, but one of my major concerns was finding a health care plan that would eventually cover maternity. Prior to the health reform law, if I'd developed any kind of condition I wouldn't have been able to switch plans, and even if I did, they often don't cover maternity for the first year. I could afford to pay the costs of a normal birth, but my nephew's cost $300,000.

uuilly 16y ago
So you're comfortable pushing those costs onto healthy young men?
- hmottestad 16y ago
  In Norway healthy young men make the most money, so they pay the most taxes. Essentially it's a lot harder to get super rich in Norway, but then again it's a hell of a lot harder to become super poor. We find that if everyone is moderately rich things work fairly well. Edit: And there would be very few healthy young men if there were no healthy young women giving birth. Just check out Japan.
- sp332 16y ago
  I don't know anyone who would mind pitching in a bit for a pregnant woman with complications.
  - uuilly 16y ago
    I can't imagine that many ramen profitable founders would prioritize the finances of pregnant women over the finances of their company.
  - jongraehl 16y ago
    You don't know anyone who would admit to minding, true.
- andrewljohnson 16y ago
  And you're comfortable with a system of laws that preempts women from doing start-ups? For one, that seems like it's not going to lead to good outcomes - it's in the country's and the world's best interest to have all capable young people able to be entrepreneurs. Second, of course I'm comfortable subsidizing women, young people, poor people, and other groups, because I view the world in a Rawlsian fashion. That is, it is just chance that I am a healthy, young, and relatively wealthy young man. But if I were a woman, or an immigrant, or subject to any other set of circumstances, then I would want the same opportunities as anyone else. As for the specific case of whether or not the healthcare laws should provide a way for all women to safely and affordably make babies - then I would say a hearty yes to this too. And as far as I can tell, this law benefits men and women equally. Unless there is a test tube involved, all babies need a man and a woman, so I really can't see how healthcare coverage for pregnancies has a sexist bias. I hope you enjoy your youth and health, but when you get sick or old, I think you'll change your tune.
  - uuilly 16y ago
    I don't think founders should concern themselves with fixing the inequities of the world. And I think it's in society's interest to place as little burden as possible on people who make goods or provide services that improve productivity. I also don't think that you should presume to know anything about what my future tune may be.
  - warrenwilkinson 16y ago
    'will not pay for' is not the same as 'law preempting' and countries don't have 'best interests' only people do, so speak plainly: you see greater financial equality as a good thing. Insurers who share your philosophy would drive men away. So you advocate market-meddling as the solution. Which adds regulation, compliance, bureaucracy, etc, costs that are pushed onto everybody. OR realize that women marry men (and thus buy share insurance). OR charities exist to support single mothers. OR they can use contraceptives --- unless you're arguing that women have a right to take risky business ventures while pregnant on other peoples dime.
- jberryman 16y ago
  Straw man. By buying health insurance as a healthy young man you are essentially voluntarily taking on those costs. It is not a question of whether she wants others to fit the bill for her medical expenses, but whether society as a whole decides to accept an amount of responsibility for the health of its people.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    You are only voluntarily taking on those costs because of threats of violence against anyone who would give you the opportunity to purchase insurance without those costs. Insurers have been completely willing to sell maternity-free insurance, at least until men with guns threatened violence against them for doing so. It's not exactly voluntary when threats of violence eliminate all competing alternatives. (As of 2014, it's not voluntary at all.)
yummyfajitas 16y ago
Maternity is a ridiculous thing for insurance to cover, since it's an event entirely under the control of the insured. Similarly, you can't buy life insurance which covers suicide or fire insurance which covers arson committed by you. Extremely expensive pregnancies are an insurable risk, but standard pregnancy is not.
- andrewljohnson 16y ago
  Brilliant! You're saying we should set up healthcare laws so poor people don't have children. While you're at it, let's completely fall down this slippery slope, and not insure people who smoke, people who play dangerous sports, or people who travel to countries with high rates of infectious disease. Let's craft a healthcare system with all sorts of incentives not do things that might make perfect sense, and one that punishes all of people's foibles.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    I'd love to fall down your slippery slope, and either not insure or charge very high rates to people who deliberately put their health at risk. In general, a good regulatory scheme internalizes externalities (i.e., make polluters pay for the pollution they cause). If we force people who take care of their health to subsidize people who don't, we are externalizing an internality. That's the opposite of what good regulations should do.
    - natnat 16y ago
      If we're going to internalize externalities, men who get women pregnant should pay for half of all of her maternity-related healthcare expenses, and for half of the income she would have made if she hadn't had a kid. Do you agree? I totally agree that smokers and daredevils and adventurers should have to pay higher insurance rates. But making women pay more simply because they get pregnant when they have sex without birth control (or their birth control fails) seems to be punishing them for being born with the wrong set of organs. Pregnancy is a much bigger deal for women than it is for men, yet men have at least as much agency in the process of causing a pregnancy. I think the big issue is you're conflating healthy people with people who take care of themselves, and sick people with those who don't. There's certainly a correlation there, but there are a lot of sick people who are sick simply because of bad luck. I, for one, wouldn't like society to turn its back on me if I got too sick to work. And I would happily subsidize unlucky sick people in exchange for the promise that I'll get covered if I get sick.

uuilly 16y ago

So you're comfortable pushing those costs onto healthy young men?

hmottestad 16y ago
In Norway healthy young men make the most money, so they pay the most taxes. Essentially it's a lot harder to get super rich in Norway, but then again it's a hell of a lot harder to become super poor. We find that if everyone is moderately rich things work fairly well. Edit: And there would be very few healthy young men if there were no healthy young women giving birth. Just check out Japan.
sp332 16y ago
I don't know anyone who would mind pitching in a bit for a pregnant woman with complications.
- uuilly 16y ago
  I can't imagine that many ramen profitable founders would prioritize the finances of pregnant women over the finances of their company.
- jongraehl 16y ago
  You don't know anyone who would admit to minding, true.
andrewljohnson 16y ago
And you're comfortable with a system of laws that preempts women from doing start-ups? For one, that seems like it's not going to lead to good outcomes - it's in the country's and the world's best interest to have all capable young people able to be entrepreneurs. Second, of course I'm comfortable subsidizing women, young people, poor people, and other groups, because I view the world in a Rawlsian fashion. That is, it is just chance that I am a healthy, young, and relatively wealthy young man. But if I were a woman, or an immigrant, or subject to any other set of circumstances, then I would want the same opportunities as anyone else. As for the specific case of whether or not the healthcare laws should provide a way for all women to safely and affordably make babies - then I would say a hearty yes to this too. And as far as I can tell, this law benefits men and women equally. Unless there is a test tube involved, all babies need a man and a woman, so I really can't see how healthcare coverage for pregnancies has a sexist bias. I hope you enjoy your youth and health, but when you get sick or old, I think you'll change your tune.
- uuilly 16y ago
  I don't think founders should concern themselves with fixing the inequities of the world. And I think it's in society's interest to place as little burden as possible on people who make goods or provide services that improve productivity. I also don't think that you should presume to know anything about what my future tune may be.
- warrenwilkinson 16y ago
  'will not pay for' is not the same as 'law preempting' and countries don't have 'best interests' only people do, so speak plainly: you see greater financial equality as a good thing. Insurers who share your philosophy would drive men away. So you advocate market-meddling as the solution. Which adds regulation, compliance, bureaucracy, etc, costs that are pushed onto everybody. OR realize that women marry men (and thus buy share insurance). OR charities exist to support single mothers. OR they can use contraceptives --- unless you're arguing that women have a right to take risky business ventures while pregnant on other peoples dime.
jberryman 16y ago
Straw man. By buying health insurance as a healthy young man you are essentially voluntarily taking on those costs. It is not a question of whether she wants others to fit the bill for her medical expenses, but whether society as a whole decides to accept an amount of responsibility for the health of its people.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  You are only voluntarily taking on those costs because of threats of violence against anyone who would give you the opportunity to purchase insurance without those costs. Insurers have been completely willing to sell maternity-free insurance, at least until men with guns threatened violence against them for doing so. It's not exactly voluntary when threats of violence eliminate all competing alternatives. (As of 2014, it's not voluntary at all.)

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Maternity is a ridiculous thing for insurance to cover, since it's an event entirely under the control of the insured. Similarly, you can't buy life insurance which covers suicide or fire insurance which covers arson committed by you. Extremely expensive pregnancies are an insurable risk, but standard pregnancy is not.

andrewljohnson 16y ago
Brilliant! You're saying we should set up healthcare laws so poor people don't have children. While you're at it, let's completely fall down this slippery slope, and not insure people who smoke, people who play dangerous sports, or people who travel to countries with high rates of infectious disease. Let's craft a healthcare system with all sorts of incentives not do things that might make perfect sense, and one that punishes all of people's foibles.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  I'd love to fall down your slippery slope, and either not insure or charge very high rates to people who deliberately put their health at risk. In general, a good regulatory scheme internalizes externalities (i.e., make polluters pay for the pollution they cause). If we force people who take care of their health to subsidize people who don't, we are externalizing an internality. That's the opposite of what good regulations should do.
  - natnat 16y ago
    If we're going to internalize externalities, men who get women pregnant should pay for half of all of her maternity-related healthcare expenses, and for half of the income she would have made if she hadn't had a kid. Do you agree? I totally agree that smokers and daredevils and adventurers should have to pay higher insurance rates. But making women pay more simply because they get pregnant when they have sex without birth control (or their birth control fails) seems to be punishing them for being born with the wrong set of organs. Pregnancy is a much bigger deal for women than it is for men, yet men have at least as much agency in the process of causing a pregnancy. I think the big issue is you're conflating healthy people with people who take care of themselves, and sick people with those who don't. There's certainly a correlation there, but there are a lot of sick people who are sick simply because of bad luck. I, for one, wouldn't like society to turn its back on me if I got too sick to work. And I would happily subsidize unlucky sick people in exchange for the promise that I'll get covered if I get sick.