5 ms·

...by original technology do you mean thousands of slaves, or?

by cududa 7y ago

_ph_ 7y ago
First of all, the pyramids were not built by slaves but ancient egyptians believed it to be their duty to help with the building of the pyramids. Second, I was referring to using original materials and processing. E.g. grinding and polishing slabs of limestone. This can of course be done by using modern machinerny. It only matters that the original materials and processing of the materials are maintained, but not that it is done with modern machinery. One would of course also use modern cranes and scaffolding.
- cbnotfromthere 7y ago
  First of all, the pyramids were not built by slaves Of course most of the labor used for the pyramids were slaves. That was never in serious doubt, Zahi Hawas "patriotic" claims notwithstanding...
- theli0nheart 7y ago
  > First of all, the pyramids were not built by slaves but ancient egyptians believed it to be their duty to help with the building of the pyramids. I’m sorry, I honestly can’t tell—are you joking? If not, you really ought to provide a source for this.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    No, I am not joking - thats what I learned at school. But just look at wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_... You have to consider that the pharao wasn't just the "king" but also the link to the gods.
    - theli0nheart 7y ago
      > You have to consider that the pharao wasn't just the "king" but also the link to the gods. Sure, but is it really volunteering when the alternative is capital punishment? Or societal ostracization? Heck, if that was the case, I would "volunteer" as well. I see nothing in the Wikipedia article that convincingly argues who built them, other than the theories of two archaeologists. We weren't there, and AFAIK, there are no first-account written records documenting the construction of the Great Pyramid. So until something like that shows up, we won't know definitively who built them. It might have been built by slaves. Or not. We don't know.
      - _ph_ 7y ago
        It is just that all sources seem to point in the direction that it wasn't outright slavery. That many workers were forced by economical needs or their believes to contribute, is another thing, but that applies to many ventures.
        theli0nheart 7y ago
        Well, I think that’s where I might object. There are no reliable sources—just theories. Until we find a direct written account of the Pyramid’s construction, we’re just storytelling.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        So on what base do you assume slavery?
        theli0nheart 7y ago
        I’m not…where did I say that? Like I said above, there’s no way to know who built them.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        Then why are you discussing? As far as I know from my history studies, the old egyptian society didn't practice slavery. So there is no reason for the assumption, that the "pyramids were built by slavery". Does that rule out, that some of the workers were forced to participate, be it by economic needs or other forms of pressure, e.g. forced labors of prisoners? Of course not.
    - cbnotfromthere 7y ago
      But just look at wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_.... Arguing based on Wikipedia articles is not a good idea, but for the sake of the argument I'll bite. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-... Zahi Hawas is a political animal who until recently was in charge of antiquities business in Egypt. Besides trying to copyright the shape of the pyramids, he was interested in making preposterous claims with the aim of connecting ancient Egypt with the contemporary one and denying ancient Jews had any contribution to the pyramids. In the particular case of whether the pyramids were build or not by slaves, he's using a sleight of hands based on the fallacy of composition with a sprinkle of false dilemma: just because there were SOME free workers at one Pyramid, doesn't mean THE MAJORITY or ALL the workers at ALL the pyramids were free. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/88/Fallacy-of-Composition https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla... https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...
david927 7y ago
No slaves were used...

...by original technology do you mean thousands of slaves, or?

by cududa 7y ago

...by original technology do you mean thousands of slaves, or?

_ph_ 7y ago

First of all, the pyramids were not built by slaves but ancient egyptians believed it to be their duty to help with the building of the pyramids. Second, I was referring to using original materials and processing. E.g. grinding and polishing slabs of limestone. This can of course be done by using modern machinerny. It only matters that the original materials and processing of the materials are maintained, but not that it is done with modern machinery. One would of course also use modern cranes and scaffolding.

cbnotfromthere 7y ago
First of all, the pyramids were not built by slaves Of course most of the labor used for the pyramids were slaves. That was never in serious doubt, Zahi Hawas "patriotic" claims notwithstanding...
theli0nheart 7y ago
> First of all, the pyramids were not built by slaves but ancient egyptians believed it to be their duty to help with the building of the pyramids. I’m sorry, I honestly can’t tell—are you joking? If not, you really ought to provide a source for this.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  No, I am not joking - thats what I learned at school. But just look at wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_... You have to consider that the pharao wasn't just the "king" but also the link to the gods.
  - theli0nheart 7y ago
    > You have to consider that the pharao wasn't just the "king" but also the link to the gods. Sure, but is it really volunteering when the alternative is capital punishment? Or societal ostracization? Heck, if that was the case, I would "volunteer" as well. I see nothing in the Wikipedia article that convincingly argues who built them, other than the theories of two archaeologists. We weren't there, and AFAIK, there are no first-account written records documenting the construction of the Great Pyramid. So until something like that shows up, we won't know definitively who built them. It might have been built by slaves. Or not. We don't know.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      It is just that all sources seem to point in the direction that it wasn't outright slavery. That many workers were forced by economical needs or their believes to contribute, is another thing, but that applies to many ventures.
      - theli0nheart 7y ago
        Well, I think that’s where I might object. There are no reliable sources—just theories. Until we find a direct written account of the Pyramid’s construction, we’re just storytelling.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        So on what base do you assume slavery?
        theli0nheart 7y ago
        I’m not…where did I say that? Like I said above, there’s no way to know who built them.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        Then why are you discussing? As far as I know from my history studies, the old egyptian society didn't practice slavery. So there is no reason for the assumption, that the "pyramids were built by slavery". Does that rule out, that some of the workers were forced to participate, be it by economic needs or other forms of pressure, e.g. forced labors of prisoners? Of course not.
  - cbnotfromthere 7y ago
    But just look at wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_.... Arguing based on Wikipedia articles is not a good idea, but for the sake of the argument I'll bite. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-... Zahi Hawas is a political animal who until recently was in charge of antiquities business in Egypt. Besides trying to copyright the shape of the pyramids, he was interested in making preposterous claims with the aim of connecting ancient Egypt with the contemporary one and denying ancient Jews had any contribution to the pyramids. In the particular case of whether the pyramids were build or not by slaves, he's using a sleight of hands based on the fallacy of composition with a sprinkle of false dilemma: just because there were SOME free workers at one Pyramid, doesn't mean THE MAJORITY or ALL the workers at ALL the pyramids were free. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/88/Fallacy-of-Composition https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla... https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...

david927 7y ago

No slaves were used...