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When I step back and look at my life, I have to say it is pretty good. I get agitated when I lose perspective and magnify some particular bad thing. Also, as

by yters 7y ago

When I step back and look at my life, I have to say it is pretty good. I get agitated when I lose perspective and magnify some particular bad thing. Also, as a Christian, this gives me the ultimate relief, because I can step back and say whatever unimaginably horrible thing is happening God is ultimately in control orchestrating things for maximal good, of which maximal good is also at some fundamental level in line with my intuition of maximal good, so I'll be satisfied in the end of it all. And if God doesn't exist, then nothing matters anyways, so why worry? Either way, no reason to worry in any ultimate sense. Sort of like the opposite of Pascal's wager. Worry has no rational basis regardless of one's worldview.

anon9001 7y ago
That's funny, because as an atheist, I can step back and say that for whatever unimaginably horrible thing that's happening, it's all just a random walk. So I find satisfaction in that nothing matters anyways, and the best we can do is try to live a good life while we're here, and not take any of it too seriously. Because it's all random and largely out of my control, there's no rational basis for worry. It's nice to see a Christian that reached the same conclusion with a totally different process :)
- david-gpu 7y ago
  > I can step back and say that for whatever unimaginably horrible thing that's happening, it's all just a random walk Can you, really? Say your kid disappeared a week ago after soccer practice, and the police has no leads about their whereabouts. Could you really distance yourself and "not worry because everything is just a random walk"? Or would you spend all night restless, like a normal human being?
  - yters 7y ago
    Yes, that is the flaw in my reasoning. If someone used my reasoning to just check out and not be concerned about their children being abducted, then we'd rightly believe there is something wrong with that person. And if the parent became manic and left no stone unturned in their search for their child, like Taken, we'd be understanding. Yet, our world is not the world of Taken, and we are not ex-CIA agents capable of destroying anyone in our path. There are truly evil people in this world capable of harming us, whom we have no power to thwart. Think of people living in the land of a drug lord, who can swoop in and take their children if he feels like it. Or the Uighurs and Falun Gong of China, who are regularly captured and organ harvested, and there's nothing they can do about it. There is great evil in our world, and little we can do about it but do our best to fight it and never give up, and even then there is no hope of truly eradicating evil from our world. What is the appropriate response?
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    Significant trauma will shake any belief or philosophy.
    - yters 7y ago
      To an extent I agree. But, a counter point, I've experienced significant depression (very first world problem), and reasoning about my situation objectively has actually helped me. I try to distance myself from my feelings and acknowledge what my real state in life is, and make choices accordingly. That has kept me out of some trouble, and also helps turn my feelings around. The very act of choosing based on reason instead of feeling gives me a feeling of power, and depression tends to be accompanied by a feeling of powerlessness. This seems to be the mechanism of how reason helps me with depression. Of course, it is not a complete cure, and it would be trite to say so, but reasoning does help.
  - anon9001 7y ago
    Maybe? Let's say I had a kid that got kidnapped, and I spend all night restless like a normal human being. Where has that actually gotten me? And if the kid never comes back, what's an appropriate "normal human" duration of restlessness? People go to therapy for years to get over that restless stuff and replace it with some version of accepting that the world is not under your control. No doubt that upsetting things are upsetting, but the guiding principle is that you have to accept the things you can't control, and do the best with the things you can control.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Maybe? Let's say I had a kid that got kidnapped, and I spend all night restless like a normal human being. Where has that actually gotten me? People don't respond to things just because it "gets them somewhere", and even less for such events. One doesn't do a calculation "I'll grieve for X amount of time, because this has the best effects", except if they are a sociopath. At best they can say after some time "I feel like I've grieved enough now, I should try to get back with life" -- and even that is not a decision, it's a gradual process with regressions, etc.
      - anon9001 7y ago
        We're in agreement. I'm just saying the goal is to process events, grieve, and find a path back to "normal". Where, ideally, "normal" isn't constant anxiety and existential crises. Eventually, you have to learn to let even the most traumatic stuff go, or it'll haunt you forever.
- yters 7y ago
  I believe I say the exact same thing in the second half of my comment.
david-gpu 7y ago
> And if God doesn't exist, then nothing matters anyways, so why worry? I'm not trying to start a pointless debate, your comment really made me curious. Let's imagine the Christian god doesnt't exist. How does that logically lead to nothing mattering? As a lifelong atheist there are plenty of things that matter to me: the well-being of people (particularly those around me), peace, justice, climate change, etc. Are these goals not valuable in themselves?
- m0zg 7y ago
  An atheist myself, but I imagine this has to do with the lack of eternal life after death in that case. Religious people find the idea of life after death comforting, and it's easy to understand why: most people fear death and can't comprehend their consciousness ending at some point, for the same reasons why we can't comprehend things like the big bang or infinity. There is, by definition, no example that we could perceive to comprehend it.
  - yters 7y ago
    No, I mean something more practical, not based in religious reasoning. If you think about it, if God does not exist, then death has no threat, since once you are dead you cease to exist and no longer care about anything. I believe this was pointed out by Epicurus.
    - sharkmerry 7y ago
      why is death a "threat"? im not sure what you are intending to say. Epicurus said death is the end of body & soul, therefore not to be feared. Im not sure I agree with that nor the inverse, if god exists, death is to be feared? Why?
      - yters 7y ago
        The notion of God and and eternal reward or punishment are quite often tied together. It is hard to see one without the other. Hence, if God exists and there is eternal punishment, that is a little bit scary.
topmonk 7y ago
> And if God doesn't exist, then nothing matters anyways, so why worry? "Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder." - Homer Simpson You've not considered this possibility, that there is an entity out there who would punish you for being Christian. I'm not against religion but I wouldn't say there is some rational reason to believe one thing or another.
japhyr 7y ago
As an atheist, I take quite a different approach. There is no God with an ultimate plan of good, so the only ones who can address "unimaginably horrible" things is us. Yes, in the end nothing matters, but in the present and near future many things matter.

by yters 7y ago

anon9001 7y ago

That's funny, because as an atheist, I can step back and say that for whatever unimaginably horrible thing that's happening, it's all just a random walk. So I find satisfaction in that nothing matters anyways, and the best we can do is try to live a good life while we're here, and not take any of it too seriously. Because it's all random and largely out of my control, there's no rational basis for worry. It's nice to see a Christian that reached the same conclusion with a totally different process :)

david-gpu 7y ago
> I can step back and say that for whatever unimaginably horrible thing that's happening, it's all just a random walk Can you, really? Say your kid disappeared a week ago after soccer practice, and the police has no leads about their whereabouts. Could you really distance yourself and "not worry because everything is just a random walk"? Or would you spend all night restless, like a normal human being?
- yters 7y ago
  Yes, that is the flaw in my reasoning. If someone used my reasoning to just check out and not be concerned about their children being abducted, then we'd rightly believe there is something wrong with that person. And if the parent became manic and left no stone unturned in their search for their child, like Taken, we'd be understanding. Yet, our world is not the world of Taken, and we are not ex-CIA agents capable of destroying anyone in our path. There are truly evil people in this world capable of harming us, whom we have no power to thwart. Think of people living in the land of a drug lord, who can swoop in and take their children if he feels like it. Or the Uighurs and Falun Gong of China, who are regularly captured and organ harvested, and there's nothing they can do about it. There is great evil in our world, and little we can do about it but do our best to fight it and never give up, and even then there is no hope of truly eradicating evil from our world. What is the appropriate response?
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Significant trauma will shake any belief or philosophy.
  - yters 7y ago
    To an extent I agree. But, a counter point, I've experienced significant depression (very first world problem), and reasoning about my situation objectively has actually helped me. I try to distance myself from my feelings and acknowledge what my real state in life is, and make choices accordingly. That has kept me out of some trouble, and also helps turn my feelings around. The very act of choosing based on reason instead of feeling gives me a feeling of power, and depression tends to be accompanied by a feeling of powerlessness. This seems to be the mechanism of how reason helps me with depression. Of course, it is not a complete cure, and it would be trite to say so, but reasoning does help.
- anon9001 7y ago
  Maybe? Let's say I had a kid that got kidnapped, and I spend all night restless like a normal human being. Where has that actually gotten me? And if the kid never comes back, what's an appropriate "normal human" duration of restlessness? People go to therapy for years to get over that restless stuff and replace it with some version of accepting that the world is not under your control. No doubt that upsetting things are upsetting, but the guiding principle is that you have to accept the things you can't control, and do the best with the things you can control.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Maybe? Let's say I had a kid that got kidnapped, and I spend all night restless like a normal human being. Where has that actually gotten me? People don't respond to things just because it "gets them somewhere", and even less for such events. One doesn't do a calculation "I'll grieve for X amount of time, because this has the best effects", except if they are a sociopath. At best they can say after some time "I feel like I've grieved enough now, I should try to get back with life" -- and even that is not a decision, it's a gradual process with regressions, etc.
    - anon9001 7y ago
      We're in agreement. I'm just saying the goal is to process events, grieve, and find a path back to "normal". Where, ideally, "normal" isn't constant anxiety and existential crises. Eventually, you have to learn to let even the most traumatic stuff go, or it'll haunt you forever.
yters 7y ago
I believe I say the exact same thing in the second half of my comment.

david-gpu 7y ago

> And if God doesn't exist, then nothing matters anyways, so why worry? I'm not trying to start a pointless debate, your comment really made me curious. Let's imagine the Christian god doesnt't exist. How does that logically lead to nothing mattering? As a lifelong atheist there are plenty of things that matter to me: the well-being of people (particularly those around me), peace, justice, climate change, etc. Are these goals not valuable in themselves?

m0zg 7y ago
An atheist myself, but I imagine this has to do with the lack of eternal life after death in that case. Religious people find the idea of life after death comforting, and it's easy to understand why: most people fear death and can't comprehend their consciousness ending at some point, for the same reasons why we can't comprehend things like the big bang or infinity. There is, by definition, no example that we could perceive to comprehend it.
- yters 7y ago
  No, I mean something more practical, not based in religious reasoning. If you think about it, if God does not exist, then death has no threat, since once you are dead you cease to exist and no longer care about anything. I believe this was pointed out by Epicurus.
  - sharkmerry 7y ago
    why is death a "threat"? im not sure what you are intending to say. Epicurus said death is the end of body & soul, therefore not to be feared. Im not sure I agree with that nor the inverse, if god exists, death is to be feared? Why?
    - yters 7y ago
      The notion of God and and eternal reward or punishment are quite often tied together. It is hard to see one without the other. Hence, if God exists and there is eternal punishment, that is a little bit scary.

topmonk 7y ago

> And if God doesn't exist, then nothing matters anyways, so why worry? "Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder." - Homer Simpson You've not considered this possibility, that there is an entity out there who would punish you for being Christian. I'm not against religion but I wouldn't say there is some rational reason to believe one thing or another.

japhyr 7y ago

As an atheist, I take quite a different approach. There is no God with an ultimate plan of good, so the only ones who can address "unimaginably horrible" things is us. Yes, in the end nothing matters, but in the present and near future many things matter.