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Hi author, wondering what you think China should do with the organs of executed prisoners? It’s easy to find fault with them for (presumably) not asking for per

by natch 7y ago

Hi author, wondering what you think China should do with the organs of executed prisoners? It’s easy to find fault with them for (presumably) not asking for permission but it seems it would be a pity for them not to be used to help patients in need, no? This is separate from the question of what supposed crimes led to the execution. Short waiting lists can be explained by the lack of permission not only for executions but for all deaths of healthy people... not to defend China on other points, but this one seems like a odd concern possibly just zeroed in on for dramatic emotional effect, rather than for any actual practical reason.

philsnow 7y ago
If the prisoners didn't consent to their organs being used (to bolster the health of the people who imprisoned them), they should not be used. Anything else sets up a perverse incentive to execute more undesirables.
- natch 7y ago
  The perverse incentive part makes sense. For the other part, I have trouble understanding why a dead person would care about anything after their death ...although I can understand them having wishes before death, but any such wishes should be weighed in context for their reasonableness given all factors.
  - rlue 7y ago
    It's not just about the rights of the person being executed, but also those of their loved ones. You may say you wouldn't care if your dead carcass was, say, grotesquely abused for someone else's amusement—after all, you're dead and no longer around to have any feelings about it—but how would your children feel? How would you feel if that was the fate awaiting your life partner? The shared endeavor of human society entitles people to dignity even in death. That includes the right to bodily integrity.
    - natch 7y ago
      >grotesquely abused Yeah that would be disrespectful. Kind of moving the goalposts though to use that example when talking about organ transplant, something that helps people who might otherwise die. Obviously I am not saying execution is worth it for that. Just more that if someone is dead already for whatever reason, it's hard to see it as a bad thing to help the living, if that can be done. I mean if we're going to fashion extreme examples for dramatic effect, that can be done on the other side too. Imagine if the relatives have racist objections to donating an organ, and let someone die because their own feelings would be hurt if they saw a person of the "wrong" race being helped. How do you weigh their racist feelings, versus the life being saved? It's not that clear to me that their feelings should be at the forefront when other factors are considered. I agree that dignity in death is a good thing. Just not so certain as you that there is only one way to get there. And none of this is to claim that China does what they do with dignity... I highly doubt that. But organ transplants are not such a terrible thing.
      - sobani 7y ago
        For some religions, organ donation is a grotesque abuse of the body.
        natch 7y ago
        True, but you can find a religious belief from some random major or minor religion to justify or prohibit just about anything. Including things that harm others or infringe on their rights. So if that is guiding policy, policy is going to be a mess at worst or severely hobbled at best. China doesn’t generally hold religion in high regard when formulating policy. They are more guided by practicality and expediency. That puts them in conflict with many western values but it’s interesting to look at it from their perspective. For those people who believe that organ donation is a grotesque abuse, that is bad but it should be weighed against other bad things. People dying is also bad. Which is worse? Grotesque abuse of a corpse, or letting someone die? China appears to have made a decision on this question.
      - rlue 7y ago
kick 7y ago
There's substantial evidence that China has timed executions for the benefit of organ recipients: they're executing people to do organ transplants, not because they did something wrong.
oliwarner 7y ago
Step 0: Don't execute people for non-violent crimes. That's a part of the problem here. People speak their mind, disappear into a black bag and end up donating their organs to a Party member's daughter five months later. The other major part being that there's very little due process, or fair justice, not in the way that you or I would expect it. Certainly not with lives on the line. Worrying about wasted organs misses the point by an absurd distance.

by natch 7y ago

philsnow 7y ago

If the prisoners didn't consent to their organs being used (to bolster the health of the people who imprisoned them), they should not be used. Anything else sets up a perverse incentive to execute more undesirables.

natch 7y ago
The perverse incentive part makes sense. For the other part, I have trouble understanding why a dead person would care about anything after their death ...although I can understand them having wishes before death, but any such wishes should be weighed in context for their reasonableness given all factors.
- rlue 7y ago
  It's not just about the rights of the person being executed, but also those of their loved ones. You may say you wouldn't care if your dead carcass was, say, grotesquely abused for someone else's amusement—after all, you're dead and no longer around to have any feelings about it—but how would your children feel? How would you feel if that was the fate awaiting your life partner? The shared endeavor of human society entitles people to dignity even in death. That includes the right to bodily integrity.
  - natch 7y ago
    >grotesquely abused Yeah that would be disrespectful. Kind of moving the goalposts though to use that example when talking about organ transplant, something that helps people who might otherwise die. Obviously I am not saying execution is worth it for that. Just more that if someone is dead already for whatever reason, it's hard to see it as a bad thing to help the living, if that can be done. I mean if we're going to fashion extreme examples for dramatic effect, that can be done on the other side too. Imagine if the relatives have racist objections to donating an organ, and let someone die because their own feelings would be hurt if they saw a person of the "wrong" race being helped. How do you weigh their racist feelings, versus the life being saved? It's not that clear to me that their feelings should be at the forefront when other factors are considered. I agree that dignity in death is a good thing. Just not so certain as you that there is only one way to get there. And none of this is to claim that China does what they do with dignity... I highly doubt that. But organ transplants are not such a terrible thing.
    - sobani 7y ago
      For some religions, organ donation is a grotesque abuse of the body.
      - natch 7y ago
        True, but you can find a religious belief from some random major or minor religion to justify or prohibit just about anything. Including things that harm others or infringe on their rights. So if that is guiding policy, policy is going to be a mess at worst or severely hobbled at best. China doesn’t generally hold religion in high regard when formulating policy. They are more guided by practicality and expediency. That puts them in conflict with many western values but it’s interesting to look at it from their perspective. For those people who believe that organ donation is a grotesque abuse, that is bad but it should be weighed against other bad things. People dying is also bad. Which is worse? Grotesque abuse of a corpse, or letting someone die? China appears to have made a decision on this question.
    - rlue 7y ago

kick 7y ago

There's substantial evidence that China has timed executions for the benefit of organ recipients: they're executing people to do organ transplants, not because they did something wrong.

oliwarner 7y ago

Step 0: Don't execute people for non-violent crimes. That's a part of the problem here. People speak their mind, disappear into a black bag and end up donating their organs to a Party member's daughter five months later. The other major part being that there's very little due process, or fair justice, not in the way that you or I would expect it. Certainly not with lives on the line. Worrying about wasted organs misses the point by an absurd distance.