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I love the concept of System76, full stop. What has kept me from seriously considering them, however, is the absence of AMD-powered systems from them. I under

I love the concept of System76, full stop. What has kept me from seriously considering them, however, is the absence of AMD-powered systems from them. I understand the ubiquity of Intel-based hardware, but I don't full get why not even an option of an AMD-based system is available. If they're going to go their own way in terms of hardware design, I would hope that they at least opened a line of dialog with AMD to explore that option. AMD is dying for a good laptop OEM, and System76 has the good sense to make it into a well designed package all around. I hope to see something develop in this direction.

pgeorgi 7y ago
> I understand the ubiquity of Intel-based hardware, but I don't full get why not even an option of an AMD-based system is available. Because it's hard enough to deal with a single silicon vendor, so they're looking for the one with the most bang for the buck and that was, before Ryzen, definitely Intel. They might be ramping up with AMD now (or not, I don't know), but when you don't have pre-existing business relationships that takes a while before you're even at the stage of building prototypes. That space is rather complicated.
nullc 7y ago
At least people know how to largely deactivate intel me, not so for the amd PSP stuff. :(
- basilgohar 7y ago
  That's unfortunate. I'd love to know more about this.
markphip 7y ago
They support Ryzen with their Thelio desktops so ... maybe. That said I recently wanted to get a Ryzen laptop and could not find one that seemed worth buying. I am not sure if AMD really offers a truly competitive laptop chip yet. I wound up building a custom desktop with a 3700x and am running Pop_OS on it. Like it so far ... just cannot travel with it. Would definitely be interested in a laptop, was about to buy the Galaga but decided to build a desktop because I wanted to try the AMD processor.
smacktoward 7y ago
> I don't full get why not even an option of an AMD-based system is available. Intel has been mired in an anti-trust lawsuit in the EU for a decade now, on charges that they offer deep discounts to OEMs on the condition that they don't ship products from competitors (read: AMD) in volume. Such a program would put substantial pressure on OEMs to avoid AMD, since they'd still need to ship a large number of Intel-based products, and losing those discounts would mean their Intel-based products would end up substantially more expensive than their competitors'. The only way to get out of the trap would be to ship nothing but AMD-based products, and demand for Intel is still strong enough that doing so would essentially be committing suicide. All of which would explain why you don't see many AMD-based products from OEMs on the shelves, despite AMD's clear superiority in the latest generation.
- MikusR 7y ago
  When AMD manages to release a laptop chip from the latest generation (zen2) then it will be found in laptops. And there is no AMD superiority, they simply finaly managed to catch up to Intel
- basilgohar 7y ago
  This explains the dearth of options with other OEMs. This should not be a major factor for System76 who, with all due respect, arguably should hardly be a blip on Intel's radar.
- mcv 7y ago
  > "AMD's clear superiority in the latest generation." IS that true even for laptops? For my new desktop I did indeed get an AMD, also because of Intel's recent technical problems and backdoors, but for a laptop I could really not find anything good that used AMD, and I was lead to understand that for laptops, Intel is still best for some reason. (Do AMDs run too hot? I don't know.)
cartoonworld 7y ago
I agree, that looks like it could strike a good relationship for System76 and AMD. Vast, rambling, inexpert conjecture about some of the roadblocks: The Intel offerings for mobile are very well developed and cost effective. Apple alone pushes quite a bit of development in this segment, in part because lots of us nerds out there with a commit history are running that hardware. Intel can supply powerful, integrated, shrink wrapped subsystems, etc already tailored for mobile form factors. Their marketshare here is crushingly dominant. Conversely, the AMD mobile platform relies on realtek and others, eliciting howls from grumpy users with certain numbers of greying beard fibers. AMD doesn't supply the ethernet, wifi, storage in this fashion, requiring the integrators to do more work. Making a change will likely be costly, perhaps even riling the, now merely sated, Intel naga from its E-Commerce/Big Data fed slumber, into a veritable springtime of onerous contract terms and volume requirements. Then there is of course the video subsystem wicket. I have encountered a bunch of anecdotal people that I mentally associate as BSD users who simply prefer the Intel UHD graphics. They like counting on the low power, and simple functionality, as do I. I recognize that AMD has improved by vast geologic scales in the last decade on the drivers and opensource front. I don't fully understand why the graphics haven't enveloped the world. Seems like everyone is happy with Intel UHD-whatever and Mali, or just take what comes and complain if it is buggy. Additionally there is a mentality of "At least Intel works properly!" that is still floating around a bit, which I don't exactly understand fully. It seems useful to myself, now, to pause and reflect on Intel's ongoing hardware security vulnerability uh--management. Certainly a masterclass of disclosure and mitigation. Finally, wrapping my afghan around these poor old bones here on my Internet enabled armchair, I wonder what life would be like if the CPU market were more like the automotive industry, and Intel were producing Taxis and Uber vehicles. Would this kind of systemic defect not have been completely ruinous? Much different industry of course, but one thing makes me chuckle--maybe those banks shelling out for those 30 year old Mainframe support contracts had the right idea all along.
MikusR 7y ago
AMD currently does not make competitive laptop CPUs.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  Yes they do. I got a Thinkpad recently with a Ryzen 3500U and it's quite competitive to the competition from Intel. Yes, it's more power hungry than Intel, but the iGPU is much better than Intel's and I don't need to fuss with a dedicated card on Linux. I play games, compile software, etc, and it's a great machine, with my only complaint being poor microphone support (fixable in software). I buy AMD for compute power and cores, and my laptop works far better for CPU intensive tasks than a comparable Intel based laptop. My main complaint is that I wish I could buy something with an extra battery (Lenovo T series used to have a second battery option) and more than 4 cores in a 14" form factor.
isantop 7y ago
System76 developer here. We do offer several AMD option on our Thelio line (and they're less expensive than the corresponding Intel options, generally speaking).
- mariushn 7y ago
  Laptop, please, with Ryzen 7, AMD Radeon RX Vega, 16gb RAM, SSD 256gb, 14", no numpad keys. eg https://altex.ro/laptop-asus-zenbook-14-um431da-am030-amd-ryzen-7-3700u-pana-la-4ghz-14-full-hd-16gb-ssd-1tb-amd-radeon-rx-vega-10-endless-os-utopia-blue/cpd/LAPUM431DAAM030/ https://altex.ro/laptop-asus-zenbook-14-um431da-am030-amd-ry...
  - mroche 7y ago
    Most vendors will likely wait for the Zen 2 mobile offerings before choosing to offer AMD lineups. There are some right now using Picasso (Lenovo has several), but it’s a smarter play to wait for the better chips that more closely compare to consumer expectations for mobile devices next year. I believe it’ll be worth the wait. I’m personally hoping/waiting for a Zen 2 system with full fledged USB 4 support. If newer Bluetooth and WiFi can be included, that would be awesome. Maybe a Radeon dGPU, too.
- basilgohar 7y ago
  That's very encouraging to hear! I hope that this does end-up extending to your laptop line. At least you're participation in this thread means S76 knows HN folks are paying attention to this detail.
- chao- 7y ago
  I completely understand how the current AMD APU chips are not necessarily competitive in compute or in energy efficiency (as mroche points out). Almost all of my company's engineers develop in Linux, and several have requested System76 laptops. The frequent clunkiness and caveats around switchable graphics that we've experienced from other OEMs has led us to purchase those laptops without dedicated/switchable graphics just to avoid potential headaches. Just to put a thought out there: If the upcoming Renoir APU line is as performance-competitive as it is hoped to be (Zen 2 plus slightly-upgraded Radeon Vega graphics), we would likely make future laptop purchases seeking that hardware. It would be great to be able to still purchase them from System76, but I do understand that is several years away. Either way, you guys are fantastic. Please keep fighting the good fight!

pgeorgi 7y ago

> I understand the ubiquity of Intel-based hardware, but I don't full get why not even an option of an AMD-based system is available. Because it's hard enough to deal with a single silicon vendor, so they're looking for the one with the most bang for the buck and that was, before Ryzen, definitely Intel. They might be ramping up with AMD now (or not, I don't know), but when you don't have pre-existing business relationships that takes a while before you're even at the stage of building prototypes. That space is rather complicated.

nullc 7y ago

At least people know how to largely deactivate intel me, not so for the amd PSP stuff. :(

basilgohar 7y ago
That's unfortunate. I'd love to know more about this.

markphip 7y ago

They support Ryzen with their Thelio desktops so ... maybe. That said I recently wanted to get a Ryzen laptop and could not find one that seemed worth buying. I am not sure if AMD really offers a truly competitive laptop chip yet. I wound up building a custom desktop with a 3700x and am running Pop_OS on it. Like it so far ... just cannot travel with it. Would definitely be interested in a laptop, was about to buy the Galaga but decided to build a desktop because I wanted to try the AMD processor.

smacktoward 7y ago

> I don't full get why not even an option of an AMD-based system is available. Intel has been mired in an anti-trust lawsuit in the EU for a decade now, on charges that they offer deep discounts to OEMs on the condition that they don't ship products from competitors (read: AMD) in volume. Such a program would put substantial pressure on OEMs to avoid AMD, since they'd still need to ship a large number of Intel-based products, and losing those discounts would mean their Intel-based products would end up substantially more expensive than their competitors'. The only way to get out of the trap would be to ship nothing but AMD-based products, and demand for Intel is still strong enough that doing so would essentially be committing suicide. All of which would explain why you don't see many AMD-based products from OEMs on the shelves, despite AMD's clear superiority in the latest generation.

MikusR 7y ago
When AMD manages to release a laptop chip from the latest generation (zen2) then it will be found in laptops. And there is no AMD superiority, they simply finaly managed to catch up to Intel
basilgohar 7y ago
This explains the dearth of options with other OEMs. This should not be a major factor for System76 who, with all due respect, arguably should hardly be a blip on Intel's radar.
mcv 7y ago
> "AMD's clear superiority in the latest generation." IS that true even for laptops? For my new desktop I did indeed get an AMD, also because of Intel's recent technical problems and backdoors, but for a laptop I could really not find anything good that used AMD, and I was lead to understand that for laptops, Intel is still best for some reason. (Do AMDs run too hot? I don't know.)

cartoonworld 7y ago

I agree, that looks like it could strike a good relationship for System76 and AMD. Vast, rambling, inexpert conjecture about some of the roadblocks: The Intel offerings for mobile are very well developed and cost effective. Apple alone pushes quite a bit of development in this segment, in part because lots of us nerds out there with a commit history are running that hardware. Intel can supply powerful, integrated, shrink wrapped subsystems, etc already tailored for mobile form factors. Their marketshare here is crushingly dominant. Conversely, the AMD mobile platform relies on realtek and others, eliciting howls from grumpy users with certain numbers of greying beard fibers. AMD doesn't supply the ethernet, wifi, storage in this fashion, requiring the integrators to do more work. Making a change will likely be costly, perhaps even riling the, now merely sated, Intel naga from its E-Commerce/Big Data fed slumber, into a veritable springtime of onerous contract terms and volume requirements. Then there is of course the video subsystem wicket. I have encountered a bunch of anecdotal people that I mentally associate as BSD users who simply prefer the Intel UHD graphics. They like counting on the low power, and simple functionality, as do I. I recognize that AMD has improved by vast geologic scales in the last decade on the drivers and opensource front. I don't fully understand why the graphics haven't enveloped the world. Seems like everyone is happy with Intel UHD-whatever and Mali, or just take what comes and complain if it is buggy. Additionally there is a mentality of "At least Intel works properly!" that is still floating around a bit, which I don't exactly understand fully. It seems useful to myself, now, to pause and reflect on Intel's ongoing hardware security vulnerability uh--management. Certainly a masterclass of disclosure and mitigation. Finally, wrapping my afghan around these poor old bones here on my Internet enabled armchair, I wonder what life would be like if the CPU market were more like the automotive industry, and Intel were producing Taxis and Uber vehicles. Would this kind of systemic defect not have been completely ruinous? Much different industry of course, but one thing makes me chuckle--maybe those banks shelling out for those 30 year old Mainframe support contracts had the right idea all along.

MikusR 7y ago

AMD currently does not make competitive laptop CPUs.

beatgammit 7y ago
Yes they do. I got a Thinkpad recently with a Ryzen 3500U and it's quite competitive to the competition from Intel. Yes, it's more power hungry than Intel, but the iGPU is much better than Intel's and I don't need to fuss with a dedicated card on Linux. I play games, compile software, etc, and it's a great machine, with my only complaint being poor microphone support (fixable in software). I buy AMD for compute power and cores, and my laptop works far better for CPU intensive tasks than a comparable Intel based laptop. My main complaint is that I wish I could buy something with an extra battery (Lenovo T series used to have a second battery option) and more than 4 cores in a 14" form factor.

isantop 7y ago

System76 developer here. We do offer several AMD option on our Thelio line (and they're less expensive than the corresponding Intel options, generally speaking).

mariushn 7y ago
Laptop, please, with Ryzen 7, AMD Radeon RX Vega, 16gb RAM, SSD 256gb, 14", no numpad keys. eg https://altex.ro/laptop-asus-zenbook-14-um431da-am030-amd-ryzen-7-3700u-pana-la-4ghz-14-full-hd-16gb-ssd-1tb-amd-radeon-rx-vega-10-endless-os-utopia-blue/cpd/LAPUM431DAAM030/ https://altex.ro/laptop-asus-zenbook-14-um431da-am030-amd-ry...
- mroche 7y ago
  Most vendors will likely wait for the Zen 2 mobile offerings before choosing to offer AMD lineups. There are some right now using Picasso (Lenovo has several), but it’s a smarter play to wait for the better chips that more closely compare to consumer expectations for mobile devices next year. I believe it’ll be worth the wait. I’m personally hoping/waiting for a Zen 2 system with full fledged USB 4 support. If newer Bluetooth and WiFi can be included, that would be awesome. Maybe a Radeon dGPU, too.
basilgohar 7y ago
That's very encouraging to hear! I hope that this does end-up extending to your laptop line. At least you're participation in this thread means S76 knows HN folks are paying attention to this detail.
chao- 7y ago
I completely understand how the current AMD APU chips are not necessarily competitive in compute or in energy efficiency (as mroche points out). Almost all of my company's engineers develop in Linux, and several have requested System76 laptops. The frequent clunkiness and caveats around switchable graphics that we've experienced from other OEMs has led us to purchase those laptops without dedicated/switchable graphics just to avoid potential headaches. Just to put a thought out there: If the upcoming Renoir APU line is as performance-competitive as it is hoped to be (Zen 2 plus slightly-upgraded Radeon Vega graphics), we would likely make future laptop purchases seeking that hardware. It would be great to be able to still purchase them from System76, but I do understand that is several years away. Either way, you guys are fantastic. Please keep fighting the good fight!