6 ms·

with regards to the App Store being the only way to get apps on iOS The App Store is the only Apple supported way to release apps, there are unsupported third

by cmcd 7y ago

with regards to the App Store being the only way to get apps on iOS The App Store is the only Apple supported way to release apps, there are unsupported third party app stores as well. Lack of transparency is not good, but I'm not sure what the issue is with there being only one officially supported way to download apps. It is Apple's product and software, they are selling the "Apple Experience" as much as the hardware. Having a single store with strict guidelines and QC helps to ensure the most consistent experience. If you only care about using the hardware how you see fit you can JailBreak and get access to almost anything. You take the same risks you would if there were other, easier to access, unsupported ways to download unmoderated apps.

saagarjha 7y ago
> The App Store is the only Apple supported way to release apps, there are unsupported third party app stores as well. On iOS, these are nothing more than hacks.
- cmcd 7y ago
  Right, third party app stores are not officially supported and for good reason. I am not sure what the alternative is, create a unmoderated free for all app store? That goes pretty heavily against the Apple ecosystem's philosophy and would make it easy for people to download damaging apps which Apple would then get blamed for because they added an official channel for installing them.
  - vageli 7y ago
    > and would make it easy for people to download damaging apps which Apple would then get blamed for because they added an official channel for installing them. Do Android users blame Google or the phone manufacturer when they download a damaging app?
    - cmcd 7y ago
      Yes they do, the most recent example is apps using a vulnerability to steal images. Many people are blaming Google and Samsung for not addressing this problem sooner and of course having a faulty permissions system that allowed this in the first place. Samsung is frequently attacked for security issues since they take so long to push out updates. Apple avoids these problems entirely by sandboxing apps and thoroughly reviewing functionality before accepting. It is very rare to hear about security issues for iOS yet we hear about a new one for Android monthly. https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2019/11/19/google-confirms-android-camera-security-threat-hundreds-of-millions-of-users-affected/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2019/11/19/google-c...
      - heavyset_go 7y ago
        > It is very rare to hear about security issues for iOS yet we hear about a new one for Android monthly. This exploit existed in the wild for iOS for years[1], and all a user had to do is visit a website for their device to be exploited. There are plenty of other recent exploits found in the wild for iOS[2][3]. This implant is undetectable and uploaded iOS users' photos and location data to the attackers[4]. All four of these iOS exploits were found in the same month. [1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/jsc-exploits.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/jsc-exploits.... [2] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-exploit-chain-1.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-e... [3] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-exploit-chain-3.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-e... [4] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/implant-teardown.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/implant-teard...
      - michaelmrose 7y ago
        Not having adequate permissions or timely updates isn't the same as being mad at Google because they manually enabled a malicious app.
  - johndubchak 7y ago
    > Unmoderated free for all app store I think we should call it Android. Given that, and a lack of a closed ecosystem, is why Android is hacked as much as it is, which is why I would never get rid of my iPhone in favor of an Android device - well, that and the lesser quality hardware, of course. But I think you see my point.
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      > well, that and the lesser quality hardware, of course. As an Apple user, I don't say this very often, but you're seriously drinking the Kool-Aid here. Neither mobile OS has a significant advantage in hardware quality at the high end.
      - cmcd 7y ago
        Yeah, this might have been true several years ago but these days you can get Androids with the same specs as iPhones at half the price.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    The alternative has been functional for decades. You have a single "store" interface with user configurable channels which users can add at their own risk. If you don't make it trivial for an attacker to induce a user to configure such a channel you avoid most bad outcomes for stupid people. For example you shouldn't be able to click a link and prompt the user as such prompts do not work. Personally I would expect - A setting in configuration menus to enable 3rd party channels - explicitly entering the channel data - a white list of known safe channels run by good actors even if not reviewed - a black list of known bad channels that can't be enabled
    - zepto 7y ago
      It’s always trivial for an ‘attacker’ to induce a user to configure a bad channel. Those ‘attackers’ will be the same media outlets who encouraged people to Jailbreak in the early days, or Google and Facebook using their respective monopolies to blanket advertise.
tener 7y ago
There are always reasons that companies want to keep their monopolies. But the fact that "Apple Experience" is something important to Apple should not be the end of discussion. The negative aspects should be evaluated as well.
- cmcd 7y ago
  I'm not saying I am in favor of how locked down iOS is currently, but you have to admit it does create the safest mobile environment especially for less technical people. Apple is selling a product in which they have not decided to include a way to easily download unsupported Apps. I do not think it is the government's role to tell Apple they have to allow a easy way for users to install Apps from different channels.
  - tener 7y ago
    It is very much the role of the government to watch monopolies and act if necessary. Even if that means passing arbitrary restrictions on their business practices. Surely not all conceivable restrictions would be good, but some (like GDPR) are clearly net positives.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      The question is whether or not Apple's control over iOS counts as a monopoly for this purpose -- do you look at iOS products as their own self-contained market, or do you look at them as "the mobile device market" that includes Android (and, at least on tablets, Windows and ChromeOS)? You can make an argument for that either way. (Personally, I wouldn't be heartbroken if Apple was forced to allow apps to be installed outside the App Store and to not require all in-app purchases to go through them -- I think that would actually end up being healthier for the platform in the long run, especially if they're serious about positioning it as a general purpose computing platform rather than an "application console" -- but I'm not at all sure American antitrust regulators will see it that way.)
      - cmcd 7y ago
johndubchak 7y ago
The primary reason for the single Apple supported AppStore is platform control and by that I mean they can control quality, security, content (remember Steve Jobs said he wasn't making a product for people to stream PORN on) and the type of apps that are permitted. This is a big part of the brand.
saagarjha 7y ago
Apple would very much like that there was no way to jailbreak your device. It's not like they've purposefully left an "out" to install unauthorized software.
- sjwright 7y ago
  As someone who owns an iPhone and recommends iPhones to older family members with a wide spectrum of computer literacy, I'm very glad about that. If you want freedom buy an Android.
marcoperaza 7y ago
That’s just not true. Apple actively works to prevent jailbreaks and there are often multi-year periods where no publicly released jailbreak exists for particular phones. When one does appear, Apple patches it as quickly as possible—for good reason I should add because jailbreaks work by exploiting security vulnerabilities.

by cmcd 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

> The App Store is the only Apple supported way to release apps, there are unsupported third party app stores as well. On iOS, these are nothing more than hacks.

cmcd 7y ago
Right, third party app stores are not officially supported and for good reason. I am not sure what the alternative is, create a unmoderated free for all app store? That goes pretty heavily against the Apple ecosystem's philosophy and would make it easy for people to download damaging apps which Apple would then get blamed for because they added an official channel for installing them.
- vageli 7y ago
  > and would make it easy for people to download damaging apps which Apple would then get blamed for because they added an official channel for installing them. Do Android users blame Google or the phone manufacturer when they download a damaging app?
  - cmcd 7y ago
    Yes they do, the most recent example is apps using a vulnerability to steal images. Many people are blaming Google and Samsung for not addressing this problem sooner and of course having a faulty permissions system that allowed this in the first place. Samsung is frequently attacked for security issues since they take so long to push out updates. Apple avoids these problems entirely by sandboxing apps and thoroughly reviewing functionality before accepting. It is very rare to hear about security issues for iOS yet we hear about a new one for Android monthly. https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2019/11/19/google-confirms-android-camera-security-threat-hundreds-of-millions-of-users-affected/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2019/11/19/google-c...
    - heavyset_go 7y ago
      > It is very rare to hear about security issues for iOS yet we hear about a new one for Android monthly. This exploit existed in the wild for iOS for years[1], and all a user had to do is visit a website for their device to be exploited. There are plenty of other recent exploits found in the wild for iOS[2][3]. This implant is undetectable and uploaded iOS users' photos and location data to the attackers[4]. All four of these iOS exploits were found in the same month. [1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/jsc-exploits.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/jsc-exploits.... [2] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-exploit-chain-1.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-e... [3] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-exploit-chain-3.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-wild-ios-e... [4] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/implant-teardown.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/implant-teard...
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      Not having adequate permissions or timely updates isn't the same as being mad at Google because they manually enabled a malicious app.
- johndubchak 7y ago
  > Unmoderated free for all app store I think we should call it Android. Given that, and a lack of a closed ecosystem, is why Android is hacked as much as it is, which is why I would never get rid of my iPhone in favor of an Android device - well, that and the lesser quality hardware, of course. But I think you see my point.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    > well, that and the lesser quality hardware, of course. As an Apple user, I don't say this very often, but you're seriously drinking the Kool-Aid here. Neither mobile OS has a significant advantage in hardware quality at the high end.
    - cmcd 7y ago
      Yeah, this might have been true several years ago but these days you can get Androids with the same specs as iPhones at half the price.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  The alternative has been functional for decades. You have a single "store" interface with user configurable channels which users can add at their own risk. If you don't make it trivial for an attacker to induce a user to configure such a channel you avoid most bad outcomes for stupid people. For example you shouldn't be able to click a link and prompt the user as such prompts do not work. Personally I would expect - A setting in configuration menus to enable 3rd party channels - explicitly entering the channel data - a white list of known safe channels run by good actors even if not reviewed - a black list of known bad channels that can't be enabled
  - zepto 7y ago
    It’s always trivial for an ‘attacker’ to induce a user to configure a bad channel. Those ‘attackers’ will be the same media outlets who encouraged people to Jailbreak in the early days, or Google and Facebook using their respective monopolies to blanket advertise.

tener 7y ago

There are always reasons that companies want to keep their monopolies. But the fact that "Apple Experience" is something important to Apple should not be the end of discussion. The negative aspects should be evaluated as well.

cmcd 7y ago
I'm not saying I am in favor of how locked down iOS is currently, but you have to admit it does create the safest mobile environment especially for less technical people. Apple is selling a product in which they have not decided to include a way to easily download unsupported Apps. I do not think it is the government's role to tell Apple they have to allow a easy way for users to install Apps from different channels.
- tener 7y ago
  It is very much the role of the government to watch monopolies and act if necessary. Even if that means passing arbitrary restrictions on their business practices. Surely not all conceivable restrictions would be good, but some (like GDPR) are clearly net positives.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    The question is whether or not Apple's control over iOS counts as a monopoly for this purpose -- do you look at iOS products as their own self-contained market, or do you look at them as "the mobile device market" that includes Android (and, at least on tablets, Windows and ChromeOS)? You can make an argument for that either way. (Personally, I wouldn't be heartbroken if Apple was forced to allow apps to be installed outside the App Store and to not require all in-app purchases to go through them -- I think that would actually end up being healthier for the platform in the long run, especially if they're serious about positioning it as a general purpose computing platform rather than an "application console" -- but I'm not at all sure American antitrust regulators will see it that way.)
    - cmcd 7y ago

johndubchak 7y ago

The primary reason for the single Apple supported AppStore is platform control and by that I mean they can control quality, security, content (remember Steve Jobs said he wasn't making a product for people to stream PORN on) and the type of apps that are permitted. This is a big part of the brand.

saagarjha 7y ago

Apple would very much like that there was no way to jailbreak your device. It's not like they've purposefully left an "out" to install unauthorized software.

sjwright 7y ago
As someone who owns an iPhone and recommends iPhones to older family members with a wide spectrum of computer literacy, I'm very glad about that. If you want freedom buy an Android.

marcoperaza 7y ago

That’s just not true. Apple actively works to prevent jailbreaks and there are often multi-year periods where no publicly released jailbreak exists for particular phones. When one does appear, Apple patches it as quickly as possible—for good reason I should add because jailbreaks work by exploiting security vulnerabilities.