4 ms·

How is that vindictive? It's true. What is the press going to do to help with an approval? That almost always should be a last resort.

benologist 7y ago
First of all Apple earned the criticism that led to this rule. In what universe do we not have the right to denounce dumb shit corporations do? They simply have no right to quash free speech. This is exactly what being vindictive is. In the buildup to this rule Apple was wrong, inconsistent and sometimes just ridiculous in their app rejections. Calling broad attention to their problems, like their keyboard issues, is the only way they choose to listen. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=funniest%20apple%20app%20rejectionS https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=funniest%20apple%20app...
- novok 7y ago
  You have every right to say whatever you want about any organization or person, but they don't have to keep on working with you. Apple is taking it from a relationship standpoint. If someone trash talks you in public and your opinion of them has gone down, you have every right to stop interacting with them. Now saying they have market power and should not being able to do that, well that is the domain of different regulations.
- klyrs 7y ago
  > They simply have no right to quash free speech. They haven't quashed free speech. They've built a consequence to speech into their developer agreement, as an exercise of their freedom of association. If you're in a bar and you trashtalk the waitstaff to their faces, it's fully within their rights to eject you. You're free to stand on the sidewalk outside of the bar and continue to exercise your rights. Just as OP is free to speak about their experiences with Apple. But Apple, and the bar, have no obligation to maintain a business relationship with anybody.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    That's a decent analogy and I'm surprised you're getting voted down.
    - benologist 7y ago
      It’s a lot closer to leaving a Yelp review that accurately described their behavior a few days after you witnessed them doing something stupid that ruined your experience.
      - dkonofalski 7y ago
        Only if you admit in the review that you took no action whatsoever to allow them to fix whatever the issue was.
        benologist 7y ago
        If you research that time period you will find many arbitrary rejections were being made that could not be resolved by the developer and may even have been nonsensical. https://www.businessinsider.com/iphone-app-rejections-2009-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/iphone-app-rejections-2009-1... https://www.cnet.com/news/behind-10-eyebrow-raising-app-store-rejections/ https://www.cnet.com/news/behind-10-eyebrow-raising-app-stor... https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3dwq8/apples-long-history-of-rejecting-objectionable-content-from-the-app-store https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3dwq8/apples-long-histor...
        dkonofalski 7y ago
        Read your own articles. None of the decisions were overturned as a result of a report to the media. All of them were resolved independently between Apple and the developer.
        benologist 7y ago
        Google Voice and the NiN album were both reinstated without change after succumbing to public pressure. Google actually went to the FTC where Apple claimed they didn't reject their app! The drone strike notification app in the Vice article ended up being approved in 2017(!!) after five years of trying to publish it, then it got immediately removed lol. https://www.macworld.com/article/1140476/accessapproved.html https://www.macworld.com/article/1140476/accessapproved.html https://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/11/16/2318247/official-google-voice-app-approved-for-ios https://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/11/16/2318247/official-g... https://mashable.com/2017/03/28/apple-app-store-metadata-drones/ https://mashable.com/2017/03/28/apple-app-store-metadata-dro... Also from the CNET article: a political countdown timer, a podcasting app and South Park streaming episodes app were all never approved.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  >Apple earned the criticism that led to this rule How? Apple isn't saying that they're going to take negative action against someone for going to the press and bad-mouthing them and, frankly, there's no evidence that this has ever happened with them. That would be vindictive. What they said, on the other hand, is that it wouldn't be helpful to do so and that is an accurate statement. Apple doesn't change decisions based on media reporting. They make and change decisions based on the information they have. There has never been a reversal of a decision that came as a result of media intervention. It has always come as a result of the affected party giving Apple some information that they didn't have before.
- natch 7y ago
  Having freedom of speech does not imply that the speaker should be free from the consequences of that speech. Especially hurtful or otherwise irresponsible speech. And spreading pre-release confidential information is different from criticizing the company. Apple is also free to decide who it wants to welcome into its developer community, and it’s fair that they take the content of your speech into account in that decision.
sanxiyn 7y ago
Since it sometimes does help, "it never helps" is false. Lying is usually considered a bad manner.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  Except it doesn't. In nearly every case where a decision by Apple was reversed, it was internal communications with the affected party that led to the resolution. I would love a source that said that bad-mouthing Apple to the media resulted in the outcome they wanted.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Running to the press is a sure way to get Apple to stop ignoring you.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      No it's not. There have been several cases where someone has run to the press and it's done nothing. I have yet to see someone cite an instance where a media connection suddenly made Apple be more communicative with an individual. In every case I've seen so far, Apple has already been in contact with the individual and the only thing the media attention does is give that person an outlet to post the emails they get from Apple along with their side of the "story" with a bunch of conjecture from a blogger thrown in.
      - dannyw 7y ago
        If you think PR teams don't escalate issues internally, you're probably just not part of the people your PR department talks to.

benologist 7y ago

First of all Apple earned the criticism that led to this rule. In what universe do we not have the right to denounce dumb shit corporations do? They simply have no right to quash free speech. This is exactly what being vindictive is. In the buildup to this rule Apple was wrong, inconsistent and sometimes just ridiculous in their app rejections. Calling broad attention to their problems, like their keyboard issues, is the only way they choose to listen. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=funniest%20apple%20app%20rejectionS https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=funniest%20apple%20app...

novok 7y ago
You have every right to say whatever you want about any organization or person, but they don't have to keep on working with you. Apple is taking it from a relationship standpoint. If someone trash talks you in public and your opinion of them has gone down, you have every right to stop interacting with them. Now saying they have market power and should not being able to do that, well that is the domain of different regulations.
klyrs 7y ago
> They simply have no right to quash free speech. They haven't quashed free speech. They've built a consequence to speech into their developer agreement, as an exercise of their freedom of association. If you're in a bar and you trashtalk the waitstaff to their faces, it's fully within their rights to eject you. You're free to stand on the sidewalk outside of the bar and continue to exercise your rights. Just as OP is free to speak about their experiences with Apple. But Apple, and the bar, have no obligation to maintain a business relationship with anybody.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  That's a decent analogy and I'm surprised you're getting voted down.
  - benologist 7y ago
    It’s a lot closer to leaving a Yelp review that accurately described their behavior a few days after you witnessed them doing something stupid that ruined your experience.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      Only if you admit in the review that you took no action whatsoever to allow them to fix whatever the issue was.
      - benologist 7y ago
        If you research that time period you will find many arbitrary rejections were being made that could not be resolved by the developer and may even have been nonsensical. https://www.businessinsider.com/iphone-app-rejections-2009-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/iphone-app-rejections-2009-1... https://www.cnet.com/news/behind-10-eyebrow-raising-app-store-rejections/ https://www.cnet.com/news/behind-10-eyebrow-raising-app-stor... https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3dwq8/apples-long-history-of-rejecting-objectionable-content-from-the-app-store https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3dwq8/apples-long-histor...
        dkonofalski 7y ago
        Read your own articles. None of the decisions were overturned as a result of a report to the media. All of them were resolved independently between Apple and the developer.
        benologist 7y ago
        Google Voice and the NiN album were both reinstated without change after succumbing to public pressure. Google actually went to the FTC where Apple claimed they didn't reject their app! The drone strike notification app in the Vice article ended up being approved in 2017(!!) after five years of trying to publish it, then it got immediately removed lol. https://www.macworld.com/article/1140476/accessapproved.html https://www.macworld.com/article/1140476/accessapproved.html https://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/11/16/2318247/official-google-voice-app-approved-for-ios https://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/11/16/2318247/official-g... https://mashable.com/2017/03/28/apple-app-store-metadata-drones/ https://mashable.com/2017/03/28/apple-app-store-metadata-dro... Also from the CNET article: a political countdown timer, a podcasting app and South Park streaming episodes app were all never approved.
dkonofalski 7y ago
>Apple earned the criticism that led to this rule How? Apple isn't saying that they're going to take negative action against someone for going to the press and bad-mouthing them and, frankly, there's no evidence that this has ever happened with them. That would be vindictive. What they said, on the other hand, is that it wouldn't be helpful to do so and that is an accurate statement. Apple doesn't change decisions based on media reporting. They make and change decisions based on the information they have. There has never been a reversal of a decision that came as a result of media intervention. It has always come as a result of the affected party giving Apple some information that they didn't have before.
natch 7y ago
Having freedom of speech does not imply that the speaker should be free from the consequences of that speech. Especially hurtful or otherwise irresponsible speech. And spreading pre-release confidential information is different from criticizing the company. Apple is also free to decide who it wants to welcome into its developer community, and it’s fair that they take the content of your speech into account in that decision.

sanxiyn 7y ago

Since it sometimes does help, "it never helps" is false. Lying is usually considered a bad manner.

dkonofalski 7y ago
Except it doesn't. In nearly every case where a decision by Apple was reversed, it was internal communications with the affected party that led to the resolution. I would love a source that said that bad-mouthing Apple to the media resulted in the outcome they wanted.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Running to the press is a sure way to get Apple to stop ignoring you.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    No it's not. There have been several cases where someone has run to the press and it's done nothing. I have yet to see someone cite an instance where a media connection suddenly made Apple be more communicative with an individual. In every case I've seen so far, Apple has already been in contact with the individual and the only thing the media attention does is give that person an outlet to post the emails they get from Apple along with their side of the "story" with a bunch of conjecture from a blogger thrown in.
    - dannyw 7y ago
      If you think PR teams don't escalate issues internally, you're probably just not part of the people your PR department talks to.