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If I might post an unpopular opinion, and let me assure you I'm not secretly a pro-CCP shill: what's happening HK has much more to do with changing economic rea

If I might post an unpopular opinion, and let me assure you I'm not secretly a pro-CCP shill: what's happening HK has much more to do with changing economic realities than it does with an evil agenda from the Chinese government. In 1997 HK had 1/3 of the GDP of mainland China and was the only way for Western companies to interact with China. Today HK has 3% of the GDP of mainland China and a huge part of this is because China has opened its borders to foreign investment. Shenzhen has a thriving economy because if you're a western company and want to do business with China, you can just go there and do business. In the past you would have had to go through Hong Kong to make this happen. The Hong Kong riots were sparked because China wanted to extradite someone who murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and then went to hide in HK to avoid extradition. If the same thing happened in the united states we would be equally furious. Of course I'm not stupid, I know that this extradition is part of a growing feeling of increasingly powerful influence of China on HK, and I know this because this how independent nations feel when the US similarly puts extradition pressure on other countries. Look what happened with Julian Assange! But the protests in Hong Kong aren't just about some emergent "evil" coming from China. Their part of the economic and social anxiety that comes from having your economic power completely change in the span of 20 years. In America we know power and independence go hand in hand. I'm equally as wary of growing Chinese political power as I am of US Hegemony. But the current strife in Hong Kong is perfect propaganda fuel for both the US and China. Both nations essentially get to stoke the flames of nationalism while HK suffers. I strong encourage people to at least question the prevailing narratives from both sides and start to look at the economic realities of what's happening.

honest_tovarich 7y ago
Exactly, I will also like people to get more familiar with the matter before making an opinion for them self ,but yeah , you pretty much nailed it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kp98 7y ago
I heard the economic side of the argument before; I do not believe it entitles China to break the deal it made - the date set was 2047 not 2019
chrchang523 7y ago
You're missing the point, which is that the people of HK are obviously capable of a higher level of self-government, and the CCP could have chosen to allow that under the "one country, two systems" framework. All of the other members of its "Asian Tiger" cohort (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) have that. The CCP was not legally obligated to do so, of course; Drew IS wrong about the illegality of the CCP's behavior here. And as a practical matter, trying to deprive China of the territory of Hong Kong is a fool's errand. But the talented people of HK who stayed in 1997 in the hopes that the rest of China would meet them closer to halfway do not need to remain. And, now that close to a billion Chinese have been lifted out of grinding poverty by the economic policies of the last 40 years, any economic moral obligation the West had towards the Chinese people has been met; there's no particular reason for the West to further subsidize Chinese development over further development of India, Indonesia, etc.
- slowenough 7y ago
  that's rich. The Hong Kong people had their freedom and autonomy. And what have they done with it? squandered it. They've been subjects of an empire. They are not equipped to rule themselves. They don't seek self-determination and autonomy and responsibility for creating their future they seek to blame the government or China or the police. and now they are seeking to destroy not to create. And yet they should possess greater freedom?
nsporillo 7y ago
Hong Kong is still extremely important to the CCP. Tariffs can be reduced by first moving exports through Hong Kong because of a first sale rule[0]. The recent bill passed in the US congress puts some of these rules under scrutiny[1]. [0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-war/Hong-Kong-s-tariff-loophole-flourishes-in-US-China-trade-war https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-war/Hong-Kong-s-tariff... [1] - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1838 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/183...
uitersers 7y ago
It’s definitely about the economy. Just look at Macau. There are no protests there. They were also a former Westen colony and now under 1 country, 2 systems like Hong Kong. The only difference is their GDP per capita is almost twice that of Hong Kong’s.
- junar 7y ago
  Macau's has been solidly pro-Beijing for over 50 years. While there are economic differences, there are certainly political differences as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau
- throwaway1997 7y ago
  Macau is all in on a single industry which works when the economy is going well, but not so well when it tanks. Furthermore, the concentration of wealth in Macau is even more skewed towards the top. The average Macanese is poorer than the average Hong Konger which is why so many now live in HK.
hkmaxpro 7y ago
> what's happening HK has much more to do with changing economic realities than it does with an evil agenda from the Chinese government First, 93% of protesters were angry due to the lack of universal suffrage. That’s the number one reason for anger, according to a survey. (http://theconversation.com/hong-kong-protesters-dont-identify-as-chinese-amid-anger-at-inequality-survey-suggests-122293 http://theconversation.com/hong-kong-protesters-dont-identif...) Do you have any poll/survey results to support your claim that Hong Kongers keep on protesting because they feel economically less important to China? How can you attribute the protests to purely economic reasons and ignore this even more important political factor? Second, Hong Kong is still extremely important economically to China: * It accounts for about 70% of foreign direct investment (FDI) to China (https://santandertrade.com/en/portal/establish-overseas/china/foreign-investment https://santandertrade.com/en/portal/establish-overseas/chin...). * Lots of mainland companies opt to list at Hong Kong stock exchange rather than Shanghai, e.g. Alibaba Other reasons why Hong Kong is important: https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/why-china-still-needs-hong-kong https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/why-china-st... > Hong Kong riots where sparked because China wanted to extradite someone who murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and then went to hide in HK to avoid extradition. This was an excuse that has been debunked: http://shanghaiist.com/2019/06/16/taiwan-lambasts-hong-kong-for-using-it-as-an-excuse-in-suspension-of-controversial-extradition-bill/ http://shanghaiist.com/2019/06/16/taiwan-lambasts-hong-kong-...

honest_tovarich 7y ago

Exactly, I will also like people to get more familiar with the matter before making an opinion for them self ,but yeah , you pretty much nailed it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kp98 7y ago

I heard the economic side of the argument before; I do not believe it entitles China to break the deal it made - the date set was 2047 not 2019

chrchang523 7y ago

You're missing the point, which is that the people of HK are obviously capable of a higher level of self-government, and the CCP could have chosen to allow that under the "one country, two systems" framework. All of the other members of its "Asian Tiger" cohort (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) have that. The CCP was not legally obligated to do so, of course; Drew IS wrong about the illegality of the CCP's behavior here. And as a practical matter, trying to deprive China of the territory of Hong Kong is a fool's errand. But the talented people of HK who stayed in 1997 in the hopes that the rest of China would meet them closer to halfway do not need to remain. And, now that close to a billion Chinese have been lifted out of grinding poverty by the economic policies of the last 40 years, any economic moral obligation the West had towards the Chinese people has been met; there's no particular reason for the West to further subsidize Chinese development over further development of India, Indonesia, etc.

slowenough 7y ago
that's rich. The Hong Kong people had their freedom and autonomy. And what have they done with it? squandered it. They've been subjects of an empire. They are not equipped to rule themselves. They don't seek self-determination and autonomy and responsibility for creating their future they seek to blame the government or China or the police. and now they are seeking to destroy not to create. And yet they should possess greater freedom?

nsporillo 7y ago

Hong Kong is still extremely important to the CCP. Tariffs can be reduced by first moving exports through Hong Kong because of a first sale rule[0]. The recent bill passed in the US congress puts some of these rules under scrutiny[1]. [0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-war/Hong-Kong-s-tariff-loophole-flourishes-in-US-China-trade-war https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-war/Hong-Kong-s-tariff... [1] - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1838 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/183...

uitersers 7y ago

It’s definitely about the economy. Just look at Macau. There are no protests there. They were also a former Westen colony and now under 1 country, 2 systems like Hong Kong. The only difference is their GDP per capita is almost twice that of Hong Kong’s.

junar 7y ago
Macau's has been solidly pro-Beijing for over 50 years. While there are economic differences, there are certainly political differences as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-3_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Macau
throwaway1997 7y ago
Macau is all in on a single industry which works when the economy is going well, but not so well when it tanks. Furthermore, the concentration of wealth in Macau is even more skewed towards the top. The average Macanese is poorer than the average Hong Konger which is why so many now live in HK.

hkmaxpro 7y ago

> what's happening HK has much more to do with changing economic realities than it does with an evil agenda from the Chinese government First, 93% of protesters were angry due to the lack of universal suffrage. That’s the number one reason for anger, according to a survey. (http://theconversation.com/hong-kong-protesters-dont-identify-as-chinese-amid-anger-at-inequality-survey-suggests-122293 http://theconversation.com/hong-kong-protesters-dont-identif...) Do you have any poll/survey results to support your claim that Hong Kongers keep on protesting because they feel economically less important to China? How can you attribute the protests to purely economic reasons and ignore this even more important political factor? Second, Hong Kong is still extremely important economically to China: * It accounts for about 70% of foreign direct investment (FDI) to China (https://santandertrade.com/en/portal/establish-overseas/china/foreign-investment https://santandertrade.com/en/portal/establish-overseas/chin...). * Lots of mainland companies opt to list at Hong Kong stock exchange rather than Shanghai, e.g. Alibaba Other reasons why Hong Kong is important: https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/why-china-still-needs-hong-kong https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/why-china-st... > Hong Kong riots where sparked because China wanted to extradite someone who murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and then went to hide in HK to avoid extradition. This was an excuse that has been debunked: http://shanghaiist.com/2019/06/16/taiwan-lambasts-hong-kong-for-using-it-as-an-excuse-in-suspension-of-controversial-extradition-bill/ http://shanghaiist.com/2019/06/16/taiwan-lambasts-hong-kong-...