11 ms·

Because it's not mentioned in the article but could be hint on why this happened (could also be entirely irrelevant). It's the guy who brought us a bunch of ea

by dewey 7y ago

Because it's not mentioned in the article but could be hint on why this happened (could also be entirely irrelevant). It's the guy who brought us a bunch of early iOS 13 leaks among other things: https://www.hackingwithswift.com/articles/164/interview-guilherme-rambo https://www.hackingwithswift.com/articles/164/interview-guil...

SpyKiIIer 7y ago
That seems most likely...
ceejayoz 7y ago
> And he’s successful: he leaked marketing images for Apple Watch Series 4, he found iPhone X glyphs showing the notch, and more. Presumably in violation of the developer program's NDA.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > he leaked marketing images for Apple Watch Series 4 I don’t think this specific one has anything to do with the NDA.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    I don't think that really changes anything. That article clearly indicates he sourced some information from the developer program betas, which would be a violation of the NDA when publicized.
    - romaaeterna 7y ago
      Then Apple can respond in an above-board way to such a violation. If the want to conduct their response through secret channels, in a harassing way, they shouldn't look to the courts to support their NDA rights on this. The same way that you can't stop paying rent to your landlord because he hasn't fixed your sink, Apple can't harass someone because they believe he is in violation of a contract.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        Revoking access isn't a secret channel nor harassment. > Your rights under this license to use and access the Content will terminate automatically without notice from Apple if you fail to comply with any of these provisions.
        romaaeterna 7y ago
        And cutting off access is quite possibly reasonable. But they've gone quite a bit farther than "no notice" in refusing to answer any questions after the fact (or even point to the contract and any provisions they may think he is in violation of, if this is not just wild speculation) when approached by him. It makes their position that this is some sort of contract dispute far weaker. I assume there is an arbitrage clause in the contract? Has Apple contacted that party yet?
        zepto 7y ago
        If he has a case, then he can invoke the arbitrage clause. Given that there is clear public evidence that he is misrepresenting what happened and that he has profited from breaking the NDA, why is any of this work that Apple should do?
    - canuckintime 7y ago
      If that's the reason shouldn't Apple have warned/informed him by now?
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        The Apple Developer Agreement states: > Your rights under this license to use and access the Content will terminate automatically without notice from Apple if you fail to comply with any of these provisions.
        canuckintime 7y ago
        > More recently, I tried calling again and got to talk with a supervisor, who said I would be getting an e-mail with instructions to get my access restored. A supervisor shouldn't/wouldn't string him along in this situation
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        I have had many customer service supervisors give incorrect information. They've generally only got what they see in the CRM/ticketing system to go on; it's entirely possible that they may not be privy to, say, a note from the legal department.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Oh, he totally has. But that doesn’t mean Apple shouldn’t tell him why they locked him out.
      - zepto 7y ago
        Surely he knows?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        Why they locked him out? It doesn't look like it.
        zepto 7y ago
        The rest of us seem to know. Do you think he doesn’t know that 9to5mac published the information he provided to them?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I don't see anyone here that really knows anything about the situation. Just because a hundred people have speculations here doesn't make it fact; it's completely possible that he just failed to sign a Brazilian legal form or something.
        zepto 7y ago
        Not really. We actually do know quite a lot about the situation. We can see he has very likely violated the NDA. By not mentioning this, and presenting himself as just another developer trying to make nice apps, we can see that he clearly has the capacity to be disingenuous. Most developers don’t reverse engineer Apple software and supply the results for publication. We also know that if Apple froze people’s accounts for failing to sign a Brazilian legal form (or similar), it would affect a lot of people and we’d know it was a real possibility. But they don’t. We don’t know anything with 100% certainty, but we easily have enough certainty to make it obvious that failing to mention his reverse engineering practice is a major red flag for his credibility.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Sourcing information is specially allowed by the develop agreement. It's screenshots that aren't.
- dewey 7y ago
  > Presumably in violation of the developer program's NDA. Even if that seems likely doing all that without a "real" full locking of the account and an email seems kind of odd.
  - sanxiyn 7y ago
    Shadowbanning is an effective technique, so it can be intentional.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Shadowbanning people who have a wide reach on other platforms doesn’t usually work all that well, as this instance shows.
    - asveikau 7y ago
      IMO shadowbanning is a highly unethical practice, especially but not exclusively for the fact that there will be false positives. There will always be false positives because even if reviewed or decided by group or committee, human judgement is always flawed and none of us really know if a ban is appropriate or justified. (And even if it is, there is always a concept of remorse or forgiveness that should be a thing too.) Just think of your own personal experience. How many times have you been wrong when being judgemental about other people? How many times have they been wrong about you? Most of the time that's just a mild social thing and it has no consequence, but practices like shadow banning make it consequential.
- flanbiscuit 7y ago
  Here the section of the Apple Dev Agreement if anyone is interested: 4. Confidentiality. Except as otherwise set forth herein, you agree that any Apple prerelease software, services, and/or hardware (including related documentation and materials) provided to you as an Apple Developer (“Pre-Release Materials”) and any information disclosed by Apple to you in connection with Apple Events will be considered and referred to as “Apple Confidential Information”. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Apple Confidential Information will not include: (a) information that is generally and legitimately available to the public through no fault or breach of yours; (b) information that is generally made available to the public by Apple; (c) information that is independently developed by you without the use of any Apple Confidential Information; (d) information that was rightfully obtained from a third party who had the right to transfer or disclose it to you without limitation; or (e) any third party software and/or documentation provided to you by Apple and accompanied by licensing terms that do not impose confidentiality obligations on the use or disclosure of such software and/or documentation. Further, Apple agrees that you will not be bound by the foregoing confidentiality terms with regard to technical information about Apple prerelease software, services and/or hardware disclosed by Apple at WWDC (Apple’s Worldwide Developers Conference), except that you may not post screen shots of, write public reviews of, or redistribute any such materials. https://developer.apple.com/terms/apple-developer-agreement/Apple-Developer-Agreement-English.pdf https://developer.apple.com/terms/apple-developer-agreement/...
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Then why not just say so in all his support calls? "You've violated the NDA, so we've disabled your account permanently." Now you have a clear reason and a clear violation. Apple gate keepers get to show their insane dominance over all parts computing on their hardware. Personally I hate this new move towards Apple/Microsoft/Google being gatekeepers for everything that can run on a machine. It's fucking bullshit.
  - Terretta 7y ago
    The distinction between hardware and software is blurring. Software-defined-X is becoming a thing. Apple/Google/Microsoft thinking is easier to understand if the black slab in your hand is considered one thing, not two things. If it is not a general purpose personal computing device (PC), but a branded PDA that makes calls. For most consumers, that’s right, and for them, the strategy is right. Make the PDA experience seamless and safe.
  - intpx 7y ago
    Because lawyers. Apple currently is under no obligation to release the rational for their decision. If they publicly tell him why, he can challenge it much more effectively. The apple NDA is possibly too broad to be enforceable and given that ALL of their competitors are allowed access to the developer system, gives them no traditional protection of trade secrets. Id est, It gives them an unintended benefit of controlling the public story (and thus some degree of market forces) about their products, but does not keep their market competition from peaking inside. If they divulge the rationale, and he challenges it in court it would upend their (and lots of other) developer programs, or at the very least cost them lots of time, attention and goodwill fighting to preserve it.
    - gwerbret 7y ago
      In order to challenge the decision to revoke his developer account in court, he would have to show that Apple has a legal obligation to provide and maintain such accounts. I suspect that Apple has no such obligation, and therefore a fear of lawsuits would not be a reason for them to conceal the reason for his account revocation.
benologist 7y ago
Apple's previously demonstrated their vindictiveness in the official iOS developer guidelines 5 years ago - 'If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps.' https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer...
- ouid 7y ago
  these guidelines are pretty good evidence in and of themselves why Apple should not be in charge of this marketplace.
  - bogwog 7y ago
    These giant walled gardens should seriously be regulated. One company should not have complete control over an entire industry like this.
    - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
      You're right, no one should be allowed to innovate or create new markets. All that is to be created has been. When the government isn't busy investigating each other, maybe they'll find 10 minutes on a tuesday to think about progress.
    - pcroh 7y ago
      Apple doesn't even have 50% of market share in any country, how are they in "complete control" of anything?
      - ouid 7y ago
        They are in complete control of the programs that you can install on your iphone, and take 30% of all transactions that occur through that marketplace. Are you a lawyer for apple?
        saganus 7y ago
dkonofalski 7y ago
So he violated the developer agreements and now is complaining that his developer account is suspended? How is that Apple's fault? Considering the suspension emails and other info are automated, it's likely that he missed them or they went into his spam somehow.
- jon889 7y ago
  Even if they did warn him by automated email, when he finally got through to them it would be much more professional to say that he broke the agreement and that's the reason than string him along
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    I agree with that statement but I don't think they're stringing him along. We only have his side of the story and, based on previous instances of similar behavior, that story is likely incredibly biased, flawed, and not reflective of what's actually happening. In this case, there may even be a lawsuit involved so it's not as simple as a customer service rep telling them "you've been banned".
    - garyb2 7y ago
      Perhaps. My experience with Apple is that they do what they want and getting anything out of them occurs on their timeline. If you don't like it, get stuffed, they won't budge.
      - Razengan 7y ago
        There was a past story right here on HN where a suspended developer riled up a mob, only to have it turn out that he wasn't being fully honest. I'm trying to find those posts.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by dewey 7y ago

SpyKiIIer 7y ago

That seems most likely...

ceejayoz 7y ago

> And he’s successful: he leaked marketing images for Apple Watch Series 4, he found iPhone X glyphs showing the notch, and more. Presumably in violation of the developer program's NDA.

saagarjha 7y ago
> he leaked marketing images for Apple Watch Series 4 I don’t think this specific one has anything to do with the NDA.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  I don't think that really changes anything. That article clearly indicates he sourced some information from the developer program betas, which would be a violation of the NDA when publicized.
  - romaaeterna 7y ago
    Then Apple can respond in an above-board way to such a violation. If the want to conduct their response through secret channels, in a harassing way, they shouldn't look to the courts to support their NDA rights on this. The same way that you can't stop paying rent to your landlord because he hasn't fixed your sink, Apple can't harass someone because they believe he is in violation of a contract.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      Revoking access isn't a secret channel nor harassment. > Your rights under this license to use and access the Content will terminate automatically without notice from Apple if you fail to comply with any of these provisions.
      - romaaeterna 7y ago
        And cutting off access is quite possibly reasonable. But they've gone quite a bit farther than "no notice" in refusing to answer any questions after the fact (or even point to the contract and any provisions they may think he is in violation of, if this is not just wild speculation) when approached by him. It makes their position that this is some sort of contract dispute far weaker. I assume there is an arbitrage clause in the contract? Has Apple contacted that party yet?
        zepto 7y ago
        If he has a case, then he can invoke the arbitrage clause. Given that there is clear public evidence that he is misrepresenting what happened and that he has profited from breaking the NDA, why is any of this work that Apple should do?
  - canuckintime 7y ago
    If that's the reason shouldn't Apple have warned/informed him by now?
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      The Apple Developer Agreement states: > Your rights under this license to use and access the Content will terminate automatically without notice from Apple if you fail to comply with any of these provisions.
      - canuckintime 7y ago
        > More recently, I tried calling again and got to talk with a supervisor, who said I would be getting an e-mail with instructions to get my access restored. A supervisor shouldn't/wouldn't string him along in this situation
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        I have had many customer service supervisors give incorrect information. They've generally only got what they see in the CRM/ticketing system to go on; it's entirely possible that they may not be privy to, say, a note from the legal department.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Oh, he totally has. But that doesn’t mean Apple shouldn’t tell him why they locked him out.
    - zepto 7y ago
      Surely he knows?
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        Why they locked him out? It doesn't look like it.
        zepto 7y ago
        The rest of us seem to know. Do you think he doesn’t know that 9to5mac published the information he provided to them?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I don't see anyone here that really knows anything about the situation. Just because a hundred people have speculations here doesn't make it fact; it's completely possible that he just failed to sign a Brazilian legal form or something.
        zepto 7y ago
        Not really. We actually do know quite a lot about the situation. We can see he has very likely violated the NDA. By not mentioning this, and presenting himself as just another developer trying to make nice apps, we can see that he clearly has the capacity to be disingenuous. Most developers don’t reverse engineer Apple software and supply the results for publication. We also know that if Apple froze people’s accounts for failing to sign a Brazilian legal form (or similar), it would affect a lot of people and we’d know it was a real possibility. But they don’t. We don’t know anything with 100% certainty, but we easily have enough certainty to make it obvious that failing to mention his reverse engineering practice is a major red flag for his credibility.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Sourcing information is specially allowed by the develop agreement. It's screenshots that aren't.
dewey 7y ago
> Presumably in violation of the developer program's NDA. Even if that seems likely doing all that without a "real" full locking of the account and an email seems kind of odd.
- sanxiyn 7y ago
  Shadowbanning is an effective technique, so it can be intentional.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Shadowbanning people who have a wide reach on other platforms doesn’t usually work all that well, as this instance shows.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    IMO shadowbanning is a highly unethical practice, especially but not exclusively for the fact that there will be false positives. There will always be false positives because even if reviewed or decided by group or committee, human judgement is always flawed and none of us really know if a ban is appropriate or justified. (And even if it is, there is always a concept of remorse or forgiveness that should be a thing too.) Just think of your own personal experience. How many times have you been wrong when being judgemental about other people? How many times have they been wrong about you? Most of the time that's just a mild social thing and it has no consequence, but practices like shadow banning make it consequential.
flanbiscuit 7y ago
Here the section of the Apple Dev Agreement if anyone is interested: 4. Confidentiality. Except as otherwise set forth herein, you agree that any Apple prerelease software, services, and/or hardware (including related documentation and materials) provided to you as an Apple Developer (“Pre-Release Materials”) and any information disclosed by Apple to you in connection with Apple Events will be considered and referred to as “Apple Confidential Information”. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Apple Confidential Information will not include: (a) information that is generally and legitimately available to the public through no fault or breach of yours; (b) information that is generally made available to the public by Apple; (c) information that is independently developed by you without the use of any Apple Confidential Information; (d) information that was rightfully obtained from a third party who had the right to transfer or disclose it to you without limitation; or (e) any third party software and/or documentation provided to you by Apple and accompanied by licensing terms that do not impose confidentiality obligations on the use or disclosure of such software and/or documentation. Further, Apple agrees that you will not be bound by the foregoing confidentiality terms with regard to technical information about Apple prerelease software, services and/or hardware disclosed by Apple at WWDC (Apple’s Worldwide Developers Conference), except that you may not post screen shots of, write public reviews of, or redistribute any such materials. https://developer.apple.com/terms/apple-developer-agreement/Apple-Developer-Agreement-English.pdf https://developer.apple.com/terms/apple-developer-agreement/...
djsumdog 7y ago
Then why not just say so in all his support calls? "You've violated the NDA, so we've disabled your account permanently." Now you have a clear reason and a clear violation. Apple gate keepers get to show their insane dominance over all parts computing on their hardware. Personally I hate this new move towards Apple/Microsoft/Google being gatekeepers for everything that can run on a machine. It's fucking bullshit.
- Terretta 7y ago
  The distinction between hardware and software is blurring. Software-defined-X is becoming a thing. Apple/Google/Microsoft thinking is easier to understand if the black slab in your hand is considered one thing, not two things. If it is not a general purpose personal computing device (PC), but a branded PDA that makes calls. For most consumers, that’s right, and for them, the strategy is right. Make the PDA experience seamless and safe.
- intpx 7y ago
  Because lawyers. Apple currently is under no obligation to release the rational for their decision. If they publicly tell him why, he can challenge it much more effectively. The apple NDA is possibly too broad to be enforceable and given that ALL of their competitors are allowed access to the developer system, gives them no traditional protection of trade secrets. Id est, It gives them an unintended benefit of controlling the public story (and thus some degree of market forces) about their products, but does not keep their market competition from peaking inside. If they divulge the rationale, and he challenges it in court it would upend their (and lots of other) developer programs, or at the very least cost them lots of time, attention and goodwill fighting to preserve it.
  - gwerbret 7y ago
    In order to challenge the decision to revoke his developer account in court, he would have to show that Apple has a legal obligation to provide and maintain such accounts. I suspect that Apple has no such obligation, and therefore a fear of lawsuits would not be a reason for them to conceal the reason for his account revocation.

benologist 7y ago

Apple's previously demonstrated their vindictiveness in the official iOS developer guidelines 5 years ago - 'If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps.' https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer...

ouid 7y ago
these guidelines are pretty good evidence in and of themselves why Apple should not be in charge of this marketplace.
- bogwog 7y ago
  These giant walled gardens should seriously be regulated. One company should not have complete control over an entire industry like this.
  - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
    You're right, no one should be allowed to innovate or create new markets. All that is to be created has been. When the government isn't busy investigating each other, maybe they'll find 10 minutes on a tuesday to think about progress.
  - pcroh 7y ago
    Apple doesn't even have 50% of market share in any country, how are they in "complete control" of anything?
    - ouid 7y ago
      They are in complete control of the programs that you can install on your iphone, and take 30% of all transactions that occur through that marketplace. Are you a lawyer for apple?
      - saganus 7y ago

dkonofalski 7y ago

So he violated the developer agreements and now is complaining that his developer account is suspended? How is that Apple's fault? Considering the suspension emails and other info are automated, it's likely that he missed them or they went into his spam somehow.

jon889 7y ago
Even if they did warn him by automated email, when he finally got through to them it would be much more professional to say that he broke the agreement and that's the reason than string him along
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  I agree with that statement but I don't think they're stringing him along. We only have his side of the story and, based on previous instances of similar behavior, that story is likely incredibly biased, flawed, and not reflective of what's actually happening. In this case, there may even be a lawsuit involved so it's not as simple as a customer service rep telling them "you've been banned".
  - garyb2 7y ago
    Perhaps. My experience with Apple is that they do what they want and getting anything out of them occurs on their timeline. If you don't like it, get stuffed, they won't budge.
    - Razengan 7y ago
      There was a past story right here on HN where a suspended developer riled up a mob, only to have it turn out that he wasn't being fully honest. I'm trying to find those posts.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]