5 ms·

> I believe Java overall meant progress. I'm not so sure, you're comparing it only to C,C++ or Tcl/Tk but what about Ada? Smalltalk? Lisp? Objective-C? Plus J

by renox 7y ago

> I believe Java overall meant progress. I'm not so sure, you're comparing it only to C,C++ or Tcl/Tk but what about Ada? Smalltalk? Lisp? Objective-C? Plus Java's standard library was full of bugs for a looonnng time: they focused on new features instead of fixing it.. I've experienced "Java can't print" myself while Java's hype was going full force..

pjmlp 7y ago
Objective-C was going nowhere before Apple's acquisition, my thesis was rewriting a particle system from Objective-C/NeXT into C++/Windows as means for the department to keep research in OSes that everyone else could use. Ada compilers were bloody expensive. Modula-2, Delphi, VB, Oberon, Modula-3,..., were great, but they were either only available commercially, or OS specific. Java was given away as free beer, with a batteries included standard library and with less hurdles than trying to write portable C or pre-C++98 across all platforms that existed in the 90's. That alone made us try it out, On my university, the computing department changed all the compiler design and distributed computing classes to Java, without Sun paying anything to a tiny Portuguese university.
- ido 7y ago
  The java performance complaints are also widely overstated...Mostly when running on windows it took a few seconds when starting a java program if the JVM wasn't yet loaded to memory (as it had to be loaded first). But a well written java server-side application (so something that doesn't need to be started very often but generally just idles until it's contacted by clients) is as fast or faster than anything you were likely to be using for a couple decades after its introduction.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    "are"? Yes, perhaps. "were"? I don't know.
mcguire 7y ago
Ada, until Gnat came out, was similar to C++, minus templates and "real" object orientation but plus generics and threading. It was also hand crafted by military contractors out of pure unobtanium. The true interesting bit, Spark, didn't come until later. (I'm not sure who did the Ada I used in a class in the late '80s.) Smalltalk was neat, but never caught on, possibly due to the lack of free implementations and the difficulty of integrating with anything else. (The original prototype of the OS/2 3.0/Warp UI was done in Digi-something Smalltalk. (Waves feebly from IBM.)) Lisp, in particular Common Lisp, was very popular in certain areas, but again died out. Possibly another combination of lack of free implementations, integration difficulty, and sheer difference from the alternatives. (Scheme. Sigh. The cleanest language design ever. But no single OO design when that hype train was at full speed. Plus, parentheses, which well Common Lisp had already poisoned.) Guy Steele said that Java dragged the industry halfway to Lisp, if that means anything.

by renox 7y ago

pjmlp 7y ago

Objective-C was going nowhere before Apple's acquisition, my thesis was rewriting a particle system from Objective-C/NeXT into C++/Windows as means for the department to keep research in OSes that everyone else could use. Ada compilers were bloody expensive. Modula-2, Delphi, VB, Oberon, Modula-3,..., were great, but they were either only available commercially, or OS specific. Java was given away as free beer, with a batteries included standard library and with less hurdles than trying to write portable C or pre-C++98 across all platforms that existed in the 90's. That alone made us try it out, On my university, the computing department changed all the compiler design and distributed computing classes to Java, without Sun paying anything to a tiny Portuguese university.

ido 7y ago
The java performance complaints are also widely overstated...Mostly when running on windows it took a few seconds when starting a java program if the JVM wasn't yet loaded to memory (as it had to be loaded first). But a well written java server-side application (so something that doesn't need to be started very often but generally just idles until it's contacted by clients) is as fast or faster than anything you were likely to be using for a couple decades after its introduction.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  "are"? Yes, perhaps. "were"? I don't know.

mcguire 7y ago

Ada, until Gnat came out, was similar to C++, minus templates and "real" object orientation but plus generics and threading. It was also hand crafted by military contractors out of pure unobtanium. The true interesting bit, Spark, didn't come until later. (I'm not sure who did the Ada I used in a class in the late '80s.) Smalltalk was neat, but never caught on, possibly due to the lack of free implementations and the difficulty of integrating with anything else. (The original prototype of the OS/2 3.0/Warp UI was done in Digi-something Smalltalk. (Waves feebly from IBM.)) Lisp, in particular Common Lisp, was very popular in certain areas, but again died out. Possibly another combination of lack of free implementations, integration difficulty, and sheer difference from the alternatives. (Scheme. Sigh. The cleanest language design ever. But no single OO design when that hype train was at full speed. Plus, parentheses, which well Common Lisp had already poisoned.) Guy Steele said that Java dragged the industry halfway to Lisp, if that means anything.