8 ms·

> Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. > The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that g

> Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. > The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: I have the pleasure to experience this freedom on word order in my native language (Portuguese) and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). [1] Although Portuguese presents this feature, it doesn't have grammatical cases, which I assume it is the feature you describe as "grammar is so developed". On the other hand, Lithuanian has grammatical cases and other grammatical features (e.g., prefix verbs with prepositions) which, as yourself put it, allow texts to be much more expressive than the ones in other languages I can read. In fact, I am astonished by how compactly and accurately one is possible to expresses oneself in that language! Is it a case for all languages with grammatical case? Are most of the Europeans (languages) [2] so expressive? Is it possible that more incredible writers than Shakespeare or Cervantes are hidden from the general global public because of the complexity to translate their works? I have a lot of those speculative questions in my mind, which I expect to find an answer someday. And thank you for your nice comment. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Pragmatic_word_order https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Pragmatic_word_or... [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case

umanwizard 7y ago
Is there any scientific or objective way to measure how "expressive" a language is?
- rimliu 7y ago
  To provide just a glimpse of how expressive Lithuanian can be, just a some derivations from the verb valgyti (to eat): valgąs — present active participle valgęs — past active participle valgydavęs — frequentative past active participle valgysiąs — future active participle valgomas — present passive participle valgytas — past passive participle valgysimas — future passive participle valgant — adverbial present active participle valgius — adverbial past active participle valgydavus — adverbial frequentative past active participle valgysiant — adverbial future active participle valgydamas — special adverbial present active participle valgytinas — participle of necessity The approximate meanings: valgąs — 'the one who is eating' valgęs — 'the one who ate; has eaten; was eating' valgydavęs — 'the one who used to eat' valgysiąs — 'the one who will be eating' valgomas — 'something that is being eaten' valgytas — 'something that has been eaten' valgysimas — 'something which will be eaten' valgant — 'while eating' valgius — 'after having eaten' valgydavus — 'after having eaten repeatedly' valgysiant — 'having to eat' valgydamas — 'eating' valgytinas — 'something to be eaten' Taken from http://www.lituanus.org/1984_3/84_3_05.htm http://www.lituanus.org/1984_3/84_3_05.htm
  - guiraldelli 7y ago
    All of those, which can be applied to prefixed verbs [1], such as the ones below derived from the verb "valgyti" (to eat) [2]: antsivalgyti - (with genitive) to eat one's fill (of); to fill up (on) apvalgyti - (with accusative) to eat (someone) out of house and home įvalgyti - to be able to eat up; to be able to consume išvalgyti - to eat up; to devour; to eat away pravalgyti - to spend (one's money) on food privalgyti - to eat one's fill suvalgyti - to eat up; to consume užvalgyti - to eat a snack [1]: http://www.lituanus.org/1991_4/91_4_06.htm http://www.lituanus.org/1991_4/91_4_06.htm [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valgyti#Derived_terms https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valgyti#Derived_terms
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    But you gave English translations for all of those examples. So they don’t actually show that Lithuanian is more expressive than English.
    - rimliu 7y ago
      One word instead of four is quite expressive, I'd say.
Koshkin 7y ago
Actually, Lithuanian is the most archaic language in Europe, which is what makes it so good.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  > Lithuanian is the most archaic language in Europe By what metric? > which is what makes it so good By what metric?
  - jadyoyster 7y ago
    By most archaic language they are probably referring to Lithuanian being considered closest to Proto-Indo-European in terms of language features: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language
    - Accacin 7y ago
      I’ve heard this and also heard it’s mostly complete rubbish. It might technically be the closest but that is still not close at all, simplifying like this doesn’t really help anything.
- kmm 7y ago
  Lithuanian is very conservative in some aspects, and very progressive in others. For example, it has lost the neutral gender and it has innovated some cases that didn't exist in PIE. There is no scientific, consistent way to call it as a whole more archaic than any other language.
rimliu 7y ago
> and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). Smagu matyti, kai nelietuviai mokosi lietuvių kalbos. Sėkmės!
- guiraldelli 7y ago
  Ačiū! Aš pradėjau mokytis lietuvių kalbą todėl šeimos priežasčių. Dabar, aš mokausi todėl, kad tai man yra viena iš gražaisių kalbų pasaulyje: kaip tai gražiai garsa, koks ekspressiva lietuvių kalba yra ir kiek įdomios knygos parašytos lietuviškai! :) Oh, feel free to correct my mistakes! :D
  - Koshkin 7y ago
    Sometimes it feels like Lithuanian (as well as a number of other languages like Vietnamese) could benefit from having its own alphabet.
    - rimliu 7y ago
      Well, we do have it. Of course, it is Latin based, but still.
      - Koshkin 7y ago
        The reason, in this case, is mostly historical (religious affiliation). At the same time, Latin alphabet is phonetic and as such it is not really a good single base for many languages that have more sounds than Latin (even there some letters represent two different sounds). Excessive use of diacritics is not a good solution. Some languages address this by mixing several base alphabets, but ideally, each should have its own alphabet; besides the obvious advantage, this allows to avoid issues arising from the sharing of an alphabet between completely different languages (like "literal" carrying over personal names etc. without taking their pronunciation into account; this issue even exists in regard to Chinese, where names spelled in pinyin are carried over into English leaving them unpronounceable for a native English reader; but forget pinyin: here is a last name - Chrzaszcz - you'll have a hard time even remembering how to pronounce it a while after you have been told how).

umanwizard 7y ago

Is there any scientific or objective way to measure how "expressive" a language is?

rimliu 7y ago
To provide just a glimpse of how expressive Lithuanian can be, just a some derivations from the verb valgyti (to eat): valgąs — present active participle valgęs — past active participle valgydavęs — frequentative past active participle valgysiąs — future active participle valgomas — present passive participle valgytas — past passive participle valgysimas — future passive participle valgant — adverbial present active participle valgius — adverbial past active participle valgydavus — adverbial frequentative past active participle valgysiant — adverbial future active participle valgydamas — special adverbial present active participle valgytinas — participle of necessity The approximate meanings: valgąs — 'the one who is eating' valgęs — 'the one who ate; has eaten; was eating' valgydavęs — 'the one who used to eat' valgysiąs — 'the one who will be eating' valgomas — 'something that is being eaten' valgytas — 'something that has been eaten' valgysimas — 'something which will be eaten' valgant — 'while eating' valgius — 'after having eaten' valgydavus — 'after having eaten repeatedly' valgysiant — 'having to eat' valgydamas — 'eating' valgytinas — 'something to be eaten' Taken from http://www.lituanus.org/1984_3/84_3_05.htm http://www.lituanus.org/1984_3/84_3_05.htm
- guiraldelli 7y ago
  All of those, which can be applied to prefixed verbs [1], such as the ones below derived from the verb "valgyti" (to eat) [2]: antsivalgyti - (with genitive) to eat one's fill (of); to fill up (on) apvalgyti - (with accusative) to eat (someone) out of house and home įvalgyti - to be able to eat up; to be able to consume išvalgyti - to eat up; to devour; to eat away pravalgyti - to spend (one's money) on food privalgyti - to eat one's fill suvalgyti - to eat up; to consume užvalgyti - to eat a snack [1]: http://www.lituanus.org/1991_4/91_4_06.htm http://www.lituanus.org/1991_4/91_4_06.htm [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valgyti#Derived_terms https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valgyti#Derived_terms
- umanwizard 7y ago
  But you gave English translations for all of those examples. So they don’t actually show that Lithuanian is more expressive than English.
  - rimliu 7y ago
    One word instead of four is quite expressive, I'd say.

Koshkin 7y ago

Actually, Lithuanian is the most archaic language in Europe, which is what makes it so good.

umanwizard 7y ago
> Lithuanian is the most archaic language in Europe By what metric? > which is what makes it so good By what metric?
- jadyoyster 7y ago
  By most archaic language they are probably referring to Lithuanian being considered closest to Proto-Indo-European in terms of language features: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language
  - Accacin 7y ago
    I’ve heard this and also heard it’s mostly complete rubbish. It might technically be the closest but that is still not close at all, simplifying like this doesn’t really help anything.
kmm 7y ago
Lithuanian is very conservative in some aspects, and very progressive in others. For example, it has lost the neutral gender and it has innovated some cases that didn't exist in PIE. There is no scientific, consistent way to call it as a whole more archaic than any other language.

rimliu 7y ago

> and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). Smagu matyti, kai nelietuviai mokosi lietuvių kalbos. Sėkmės!

guiraldelli 7y ago
Ačiū! Aš pradėjau mokytis lietuvių kalbą todėl šeimos priežasčių. Dabar, aš mokausi todėl, kad tai man yra viena iš gražaisių kalbų pasaulyje: kaip tai gražiai garsa, koks ekspressiva lietuvių kalba yra ir kiek įdomios knygos parašytos lietuviškai! :) Oh, feel free to correct my mistakes! :D
- Koshkin 7y ago
  Sometimes it feels like Lithuanian (as well as a number of other languages like Vietnamese) could benefit from having its own alphabet.
  - rimliu 7y ago
    Well, we do have it. Of course, it is Latin based, but still.
    - Koshkin 7y ago
      The reason, in this case, is mostly historical (religious affiliation). At the same time, Latin alphabet is phonetic and as such it is not really a good single base for many languages that have more sounds than Latin (even there some letters represent two different sounds). Excessive use of diacritics is not a good solution. Some languages address this by mixing several base alphabets, but ideally, each should have its own alphabet; besides the obvious advantage, this allows to avoid issues arising from the sharing of an alphabet between completely different languages (like "literal" carrying over personal names etc. without taking their pronunciation into account; this issue even exists in regard to Chinese, where names spelled in pinyin are carried over into English leaving them unpronounceable for a native English reader; but forget pinyin: here is a last name - Chrzaszcz - you'll have a hard time even remembering how to pronounce it a while after you have been told how).